Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix Podcast, where our mission is, to tell the truth about adrenal fatigue to exhausted and burnt out adults so that they can get their energy back quickly. And today, I’m really excited to interview My next guest, Dr. JOHN Tate, who’s the chief health strategist for rejuvenating. Medicine, medical Southwest. After more than 15 years of medical training, including two fellowships and acquiring three board certifications, Dr. Tate saw how conventional medicine was failing so many patients. And after his own devastating injury in 2012, which left him looking for an alternative way for a potential third spinal surgery, he found the solution and his true calling, and in functional and regenerative medicine. So dr. john, thank you so much for being here today.
Dr. John Tait: And my pleasure, thanks for having me.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. So you know, my audience are people that are exhausted and burnt out. And much like you, I had a devastating back injury myself. And so sounds like I’d like to know a little bit more about your history, your background, what got you to where you are today. So why don’t you tell our listeners a little bit about your story?
Dr. John Tait: Sure, well, we’ll just launch off right from, you know, February of 2012. So I was a few years out in practice, I had completed all that training 15 years, you know, school, residency to fellowships, knew a lot I was my practice at that time was an integrative pain clinic I was working within. And we had a great model, we had a psychologist had physical therapists, we were very good at doing interventions to alleviate pain medications, interventions that we’re injecting in the spine, or, or we’ll say numbing nerves, deadening nerves, so people couldn’t feel things, you know, with joints in their spine. So we had a very good system built around that. And then I found myself on the other side of the table, you know, in that month, and the backstory with my back is actually my first year of medical school, I herniated a disc in my back a few months before I scheduled to start school. And I worked through conventional treatments ultimately had surgery on my L fives, one disc, and my spring break of my first year of medical school. I was not on vacation in Cancun, I was getting surgery. So I learned a lot from that. Obviously, it was a pivotal kind, of course, correction in my training at that time. And walk that forward. Unfortunately, I had some issues with that a couple of years later, went through the conventional Reagan, the roll again, came out the other side really good. And that was about 10 years, until that February 2012, where I woke up that morning had some symptoms in my leg, but I was committed to an event doing I do a lot of hiking, and we were going to do a charity event. And we’d raised a ton of money with my wife to do this event. And I wasn’t going to back out at the event. So I’ll shorten the story. But I gave myself a pretty good sense, ridiculous apathy in my leg over the course of hiking 30 miles that day, and landed back in my office Monday morning, thinking, am I going to go through the same stuff again, there’s shots, the meds, and maybe ultimately a third surgery. And I didn’t like that view. So after a week or so of the what-ifs. I got to work on the What now? How do I solve this without doing those things and find a different path out of it? There’s time.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. Okay. So it’s always a learning process with your own health to help other people with their health. So So as far as the model I love that you had a psychologist to help with the pain presentation as well. But what do you feel john was the big learning. Aha for you in terms of once you said, Okay, I don’t want to go down that route one more time. What changed? And what did you do?
Dr. John Tait: Yeah, great question. I think what it came down to initially was like we see in ourselves or our patients so we got to develop this mindset. First of was a little bit fearful when I injured myself again, of course, I was. I knew all too well now at that time where this could lead to me. And, you know, it wasn’t out of just a disdain for surgery or otherwise, I just felt that there was a better way to get my body to heal and recover this time around. I had already been spending a little bit of time in the functional medicine space I had been introduced to regenerative medicine through my training with treatments like prolotherapy and platelet therapy and we’re getting now more traction with STEM Cell Therapy and what that can do to help the body heal. So the first thing was just the mindset or the approach that I said, Well, you know, I know what the other version is over here. But I can play this out a little bit longer down this path and see if I can just get my body to turn the corner, this time without those other conventional treatments. The second piece of it, despite us having all of that, in our practice, what was really lacking in what’s lacking in most people that train through traditional medical school is a deep dive on how the body actually heals and repairs nutritionally, from a lifestyle standpoint, and I’m gonna do so we’re a little bit more holistic, maybe in our thinking, not that some of my MD counterparts aren’t. But, you know, I got an inside look at that, and my training, but I, I felt that that was really the gap. And I knew it was because I started exploring in that and saying, okay, I can do all these physical things to get my body better. Like at this point, my nerve just had to recover from the injury I gave it going, and trying to exercise it back into health physically, wasn’t going to be the way to get there. So now I started looking at the physiology because we spend so much time focused on the anatomy of the thing, what does that MRI look like? Or what does that mean to look like on an X-ray? But man, these physiologic systems that you well know in our body that really turn the wheels on our body’s ability to repair. So that’s, that’s where I went down the rabbit hole, you could say, and that it didn’t look back. I mean, this was just the whole world that opened up to me with the next layer of functional medicine and regenerative medicine.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s a great, great story, I’m sure you’re now overwhelmed with knowing now what you don’t know, in terms of expanding that there are this whole psycho neuro Immuno and the chronology and the Korean gastro, it’s really a bought back and forth communication system between all of those systems in the body. But going back to your injury, because I could really identify with that. And also with, with the listeners that listen to this, a lot of their, their Domino effects were from trauma, whether it’s physical, emotional, and then they have sort of a post-traumatic or even post-physical injury that can really debilitate them and can really not only cause pain, which I do want to get into with you today, because I want to discuss your natural approaches to pain and how all those systems help to contribute to getting better, especially with regenerative medicine and what you’re doing. But back to you. Back to you. As far as was there ever a time john, when, when you said you are fearful? Was there ever a time when you were fatigued, exhausted, didn’t have the energy or it impacted other areas because as you know, pain impacts so many different emotional centers. But were there other areas of our body that are of your systems or just your health that was also impacted based on those reoccurring traumas that you were having?
Dr. John Tait: Absolutely. And I’m glad you brought that up. Because it’s a subject that not all Doc’s want to go there, into that space with their patients, unfortunately, and I think if we don’t explore that bio, soak psychosocial piece, or we’re focused too much on the anatomy or too much on the biology, or physiology, but we really don’t explore the psychosocial dimension of what’s going on. And, you know, around that time, I can say that my practice was not my dream practice, I, it was a very stressful position, it was grinding really long, hard hours trying to build a practice for myself. I didn’t enjoy every bit of what I was doing there. So I was carrying a certain amount of stress and my way of relieving the stress, like many of us, you could probably just go pound the weights, you know, and put actually more stress on my body in a good way, you know, but also I saw chemotivity looking at it in, in kind of this retrospective view now, the times in my life where I had those injuries and what else was going on in my life at the time? Was it this physical insult, or was this cumulative trauma? psychosocial that, you know, we don’t, you know, considering it trauma, but it does affect these systems in our body. And there was this article that I read at the time, probably seven years old now I think, but you know, University of California, San Diego, Robert Nebo or Nebo. But he talked about this mitochondrial the basically the features that were called cell danger response, like what happens when your body is under this trauma in this persistent stress, and what happens to the physiology of our body that goes into this danger response, where we get this mismatch between our metabolic system, we get inflamed, everything gets in that state where it’s more vulnerable because we don’t have the resources to repair, we have this inflammatory state that’s compromising the function of the body, and the body breaks, you know, or it can neutralize that cell danger, response, that inflammation and really start to turn the wheels on repair and regeneration. And it was very interesting to me at the time, like reading that, because there’s just like, why is nobody talking about this stuff like this is, this is super important. And this is what we’re missing. In my practice, when we just keep injecting this thing because it hurts we keep medicating this thing. After all, it hurts. But what we’re also changing, kind of unknowingly, or maybe knowingly, when we accept it as the side effect of the medication is that we’re changing that metabolic machinery, as you well know. We start altering those things with pharmaceuticals, and that taxing load it takes on our spine to err on our body rather than detoxify all that stuff. It’s this cumulative effect. And then yes, maybe this physiologic thing, or this, this activity I did, was that really the straw that broke the camel’s back. Right. But I think it’s really an underappreciated space where not everybody’s comfortable going into that to really if I review the histories of a lot of my patients, the reason their body went sideways, was this mounting cumulative stress in their world here much more than it was physical stress that broke a part of their body.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no awesome stuff. I mean, I’m glad you referenced that. And the tomato. I know, I’ve heard it as Robert navio. I don’t know. But he has a follow-up report. I don’t know. He read his most recent, published, peer-reviewed study, beyond the cell danger, which I had to do a lecture for an environmental conference. And I didn’t know what it was, it was with mold, and it was getting into genetics. And I was telling the truth about adrenal fatigue. And I was really stressed out about it, about what am I going to talk about? And I said, Well, let me go to the cell danger because I think that’s awesome. And just as a side note, I think that it really sheds. The importance of even though specialties are great, the body’s a generalist, and the specialties need to talk to each other because the body’s doing what it should, under the stress load that it’s undergoing. It’s not necessarily broken, per se, it just needs a new paradigm to understand why it’s doing what it’s doing. And it’s a cell danger response, to prevent more danger, and to reduce the inequality between supply and demand. But the new paper, john is awesome in terms of it says that the body gets stuck in healing responses. So it’s not able to go from one phase to the next phase to the next phase. And when that happens, you have incomplete healing. And then you have more likelihood for repair, at least at the 30,000 view foot more likelihood for damage structurally and re-injury and pain, for sure. So that’s an awesome paper that you reference. And so as far as, I guess, the question that I would have for you is, how do you apply that now to what you do now, because as far as we see, you know, pain is such a huge comment, or I get people having a lot of pain, have a lot of pain. And ultimately there is that reductionistic approach where I want to just take something and make the pain go away. And I don’t mind that recommendation, as long as you’re understanding the entire clinical picture, and what are all the things that are contributing to the pain so that you don’t rely on those pain, things to help you. So as far as that, how do you I guess the question would be, what’s your approach now? How do you balance what you need to help your clients with now with maybe getting more to the root cause or addressing upstream mechanics, so that that may take How do you balance the two?
Dr. John Tait: Great question. I mean, there’s a lot to unpack there. And back to your other statement about that, you know, body getting stuck, you know, in that like that healing phase or think, you know, I think the phrasing they used in that article is like a metabolic you know, the memory of past you No stress encounters or something like that, but it’s like, these pathways get kind of grooved into your system. You know, especially with people that have pain, you know, we look at the processing of pain.
Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s all I think they reference it as metabolic addiction to where you have the same Sorry to interrupt the same chemicals that get released, for better or for worse, your body kind of gets used and addicted to that. I think that’s, that’s what he was saying.
Dr. John Tait: Yeah, yep. And so it can really alter these fundamental pathways, as you know, well, and, you know, we talked about just mitochondrial function of cells to be able to produce energy to get the momentum to actually repair or in the macronutrients, we need to deliver into the cells to give them like the substrate, the literal building blocks, so they can repair. And none of that stuff, as I, you know, went through all the training that I did, and came out of my injury over the next, you know, 1218 months studying this to the point where I said, you know, I’m not going back, like, literally, like I’m moving on, and I’m starting a practice built around this other methodology. Because it’s not to your point like this, or that thing, it is that some patients need that I tell my patients, it’s kind of training wheels, until we can get your body and balance to balance on its own. Some people need those training wheels, they need a little medication that just gets them out of that pain state. Because if you’re in that pain cave, it’s hard to function. Man, it’s hard to think it’s hard to have the energy to do anything. But it is a fine balance, because we know it comes at the expense of compromising gut function, cognitive function, because I can tell you when I was on those meds, I went back into my practice that Monday morning after that hike, and my partner’s like, Man, you’re in a bad way, let’s get you going on some stuff, you know, started prescribing things like you know Lyrica and getting on these medications to maybe help, you know, with the nerve pain I was having. And I was driving to work a couple of days later. And like, man, I was holding the wheel. But I felt like my hands weren’t on the wheel, it was weird, like, out of the body like whoa, like and this like, now I’m like realizing what my patients feel regularly. Like they don’t, they don’t like the way they feel on this stuff. But they don’t know what else to do. So they got to take it kind of approach. Because that’s what’s being literally fed to them through pain clinics and other things. And those Doc’s are well, meaning it’s the tool they know how to use. So they use it, right? It’s not that they’re ignorant of this, it’s just like me if you would have met me, eight, nine years ago, I was knowledgeable of some of this stuff. Because I was always plugged in taking care of my health, but not at the level. Now, I understand it to help people, you know, uncouple, some of those, like, just links that they’ve had there to either that metabolic chaos in their body, the physical, like adaptations they’ve made in their body, the decompensation of their movement patterns. And so those are all things that, you know, in my process, we start to think about, you know, how do we get your body prepared to get out of this state, like all of us, like, if we were going to go out on, you know, an adventure in the mountains, and we’re not well versed at the path ahead, we would do some education, we would learn we’d get some maps, we’d sit up base camp for a while I would study our route, we do all those things, we wouldn’t just like spring out in the mountains with no equipment. And so a lot of our patients is just equipping them, to have the right mindset to really know like, it is possible to turn your body around even if you feel it’s been like you said earlier broken or it’s failed you while the body has this incredible resilience to bounce back up from that injury, if we start to then put the right things in motion, which is now we talked about how do we activate some fundamental things for the patient in their lifestyle. Many people were not taught and educated how to sleep, how to build more stress resiliency, or what a healthy diet truly looks like, and how that can be different from one person to the next. So we got to get into all those things. And then obviously, that segues into now what I do with a lot of people in the functional medicine piece is really understand the deep inner workings of their body, where they’re deficient nutritionally, to get their body to heal what’s going on with their gut because we know that such a gatekeeper for everything else. Look at your immune system reactivity by getting different tests, because you see this all the time in your practice, I’m sure with chemical sensitivities, mold sensitivities, all these things that start to rob energy from the body’s ability to repair and regenerate. And so it sounds like a lot. But you know, the system is pretty clear for getting the right pieces in place to help people have the opportunity for their bodies to heal. And then, I nudge them over on this side on again into the regenerative space to say now if we got the foundation set, and you got the path, you’re walking the path, you’re doing pretty good. You don’t have to be perfect, but 80% of the time, you’re plugged in and you’re doing this stuff. Cool. Now the machinery is here. To start moving in the right direction, we got your mindset machinery working the right way, we got your body’s machinery working the right way. Cool. Now we can give your body a nice nudge, you know, and an assist to really heal. If it’s a specific tissue in your body that is physically injured and torn, or, you know, has aged or degenerated to some degree, we can start to turn that clock back a little bit, or at least level out the slope where somebody is not declining so precipitously over time.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I know, there are so many things that are going off in my head, I’m like, I’m not gonna remember when I but what I think of is, it must be a fine line, john, when someone’s injured, and they’re debilitated. And they have major pain, and they want to get better. And you have to not necessarily show them what they need. But the kind of give them what they want, right? In terms of, okay, they, they want to get out of pain, but I don’t want to tell them like, Hey, your gut health is messed up, you know, we got to balance your blood sugar. Ultimately, that’s what led to this injury is much more likely, because the water is over getting to the overflowing part of the cup, and then the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back resulted in structural damage and injury. And there’s a lot of things going wrong there. And so I could see that, and I’m really hopeful and excited to hear that that’s where medicine is getting towards, which is awesome. Because Oh, but at the same time, it’s you have to graduate them slowly. And that the other thing I was going to mention is it’s like it’s gotten much more sophisticated now wherewith rehab, it’s usually a progressive progression from like, Pat, you know, acute to subacute to more a chronic thing, or it goes from, from passive to active to more evolved in terms of the rehab. But it’s kind of the same thing now except just at a much more cellular mitochondrial in all-encompassing level. Number one, those are the things I think of the other thing I think of too is I remember when I injured my back. And I don’t want to make this about me, but I went for an MRI, and it was a 2.5-centimeter herniation it was a really big herniation. And I still have a little bit of numbness and ridiculous apathy on the outside of my right, my right foot. And I remember like I didn’t want to take medication, but I would be like in tears driving to work, I’d be on the bathroom floor in between patients. I’d be like at a Starbucks. And it would be like I’m taking a crap sitting down the way I was because I couldn’t stand in line. It was that painful. Yeah. And I remember I finally got a prescription for like a narcotic for pain. And I remember not like you in terms of feeling outside of my body and not really feeling my hands on the steering wheel. I remember thinking when it kicked in, it was like, Okay, I could see why people like this, you know, like, this is definitely like, I got some endorphins going here, I don’t have the pain, it feels good. I kind of have like this little, you know, good euphoric feeling. But when that would wear off, I would feel nauseous. And I and I didn’t even want to take it anymore because that nausea and that really tearing up my stomach was worse than the pain, you know, of what I was feeling. So lots of clinical nuggets that you shared with me there. So as far as how do you manage the educational process? I guess when I guess I mean, is it one of those things that I when they come to see you they know that Dr. John’s regenerative approach is going to include the education of how my whole body’s involved for me to make a complete recovery? Or is it more of they didn’t really realize that until you know, you kind of earn their trust, got them out of pain, and then kind of educated them on Okay, here’s what you really need? How do you go about doing that?
Dr. John Tait: Yeah, it’s a great question. I think it’s as we do often in our practice, we got to meet them where they’re at. Some people come to me, they just have a problem, but they’re not very solution aware. But they know I do things a little bit differently. And they did enough research to say hey, this isn’t just what I’ve been fed with repeat cortisone shots and medications. And this guy is doing a little bit different version. And some people are very solution aware, you know, they’ve done some research, they’ve studied things like platelet therapy or stem cell therapy or they’re, they’re somewhat knowledgeable about functional medicine and they maybe they’ve even had some testing elsewhere. But I think the gap is really connecting the two pieces. Because I have plenty of colleagues that are just amazing regenerative Doc’s that just focus purely on the injection interventional side of it. And they don’t really explore the nutritional side of the biopsychosocial stuff that we’re talking about. And they still get great results with their patients. But I know when we integrate these two worlds, what I leave that patient with, regardless of the outcome, because there are some cases where, you know, we can’t turn that tissue around, you know, somebody’s been beating up their knee for decades, and it’s an end-stage bone on bone, knee, some of those, I’ve been able to turn around and have that person avoid a knee replacement. Some people they can’t, but when I tell all my patients that promise, we’re going to make you healthier in the process, you’re going to graduate out the other side of our treatment, knowing how to take care of your body, knowing the right testing to get periodically to look in on your body. And I think that’s huge for people. And it’s, it’s meeting them at that, at that place where they are and saying like, let’s just take the biggest step that you’re able to today. And we’ll just keep adding some steps down the path as we go. We don’t have to make a landslide shift in your entire world when it comes to nutrition. But I look for like you do where those needle movers, that you know, we can, we can just take the slider and move it a little bit over here to make it better. And that’s going to start to get some things clicking in their world where they can feel it. Because your point when somebody is in just that state where you were just like, miserable, it’s going to be really hard to sell them on, Hey, you know what I want to, I want you to go home and prep every single meal and make it from scratch. And I want you to do that, right? Like this whole laundry list of things that sometimes we unload on patients because we’re so excited about getting all that going in somebody’s world because that’s what we do in functional medicine. But it’s kind of bringing it back to the piece where it’s like, okay, that’s doable. I can start with that. And so for me a lot of times, I’m just like, let’s get your sleep, right. You know, let’s really focus there, it’s not going to take much effort other than getting you into bed every night, but work on the hour before bed, how do we get that routine, that systematic approach where we can get you sleeping better, and sometimes the pain interferes with the sleep. So we may have to use some tools there to help with the pain. But alongside that we’re like, okay, let’s, let’s get that rhythm going again, let’s get you to get your body into a deeper sleep state because that’s where it does heal and repair. And we know that people are shortening that sleep interval because they’re in pain are disrupted all night. You know, they’re robbing minutes or hours even of time that their body’s repairing. And they just keep stacking that stress day after day. And they really have don’t get that time to repair. So so it is a tricky question, but it’s very personalized to the patient. And what they’re, you know, willing to do. It’s always like, okay, where can you meet me on this one? And what do you think is doable? Like, what’s that process goal we can set for you for the next couple of weeks, or to our next appointment? That Hey, just if all you can work on is getting your sleep dialed in, let’s work on that. If you need those medications, for now, that’s okay. You know, our goal is to get rid of those in time, if possible. But sometimes we need them again, those training wheels to make things a little bit more doable.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I know, it’s a great answer. And I think it does come with expectations, right in terms of meeting expectations, setting goals, and asking them okay, well, what is it that you want out of this? You know, like, what if we can address whatever it is that’s missing from your life beyond just the pain that you’re experiencing? And the function and the limitations? What are your expectations, and I think that’s key. I would be surprised, though, to do a study between just the regenerative doctors that don’t focus on all of that, that get results. And and and someone like you in integrative functional medicine, look at everything and set goals and expectations and do the same stuff. I would be surprised if there wasn’t a significant difference between the two. What are your thoughts on in terms of the outcomes in terms of the response, you know, in terms of the increased functionality? I don’t know is that is it? What’s your sense on that?
Dr. John Tait: Oh, you’re on target. Because when I look at my personal data in my own practice, where, you know, I walked into this, you know, fairly knowledgeable but built more systems more structure. The way we do it now like our, I guess, proprietary process of looking at things and embedding these things and doing it alongside our treatments, no question our outcomes changed, and both how quickly people responded to treatment. Okay, but also more, or equally important for patients is the longevity of this treatment. Right? So if I’m getting treatment, I don’t want to be back in a year getting more treatment. If they could put Stretch two to three years because I’m working on some of this stuff over here. So I mean, that’s how I position it for my patients is like, man, would it be fantastic to get out of this situation but not have to come back. And maybe this is not the best financial model for my practice, because if I didn’t teach them those things, then they’d be back every year right to get more treatment. But that’s just not who I am. And I want people to understand like, man, if we can unlock this system for you, where you just know where to put your energy, you know, the path to walk and man you commit to it, it doesn’t have to be 100%. But if we go to the other side of that, and your body is in a state of chaos, you’re in the middle of this, like dangerous sponsor, whatever you want to call it, this metabolic chaos. I tell patients if I were to take cells out of you right now in that condition, and inject them right back into you, how well do you think those cells are going to work? Right? I equate that to taking your cells and throwing them in right back into like a wood chipper. Right? It’s like, it’s not gonna work that well. Because the whole thing of how the cells work is predicated on how healthy you and your cells are to signal one another to say, Hey, we need help over here, let’s get to work repairing. But it’s like, you know, these forest fires that, you know, we’ve read about out west. Here, it’s like, man, if you’re battling him on multiple fronts, you can channel your energy right here where it’s needed to really put this one out. And if we’re trying to put out the fire in your knee that’s just killing you because of this arthritis, or whatever it is. But you got all this metabolic chaos burning in your body everywhere, man, like, we’ll probably still get a result. And I know we will because they trained in practices where they still got results. But it doesn’t come as quickly. It’s not as robust as it would be, and it certainly doesn’t last as long.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s a good point, I never really thought of that in terms of the frequency, right, the frequency of the body, and at all cellular levels. And if you have a really harmonized dis jaded frequency, it’s gonna impact the stem cells, it’s going to impact the ability of the PRP and the platelets to be effective. It’s a really cool thing. I never thought of that. As far as a couple more couple lots of questions, if you’re okay with me asking you all these boards, what you know, I find that that it’s very, very frustrating John because what I hope some of the like, I don’t want to I don’t, let’s say the train wrecks, right, in terms of the perfect storm, they got crazy genetic susceptibilities with the craziest environmental realities, and it creates this perfect storm. And in your case, it’s an injury, and it’s a trauma and it’s pain. And then a lot of doctors that are specialists that they’ve been to our talking to each other, and they’re not communicating, and then that person has a slippery slope of, of prescription one through five, and then now they have the prescription six to take care of the side effect of prescription one. So how do you manage that, you know, I’m curious to know, as a colleague, but also in terms of, you know, people that are exhausted and burnt out? And what they might ask is like, yeah, my doctor puts me on all this medication and it kind of help, but I’m still in pain, I still have a lack of mousse motion and movement. I feel terrible. And I don’t know how to get off this or what the solution to that is. So I guess it’s a, it’s an open question to answer however you want.
Dr. John Tait: Yeah, I mean, it’s a good one, because I think, you know, sometimes, there’s this polarization between these worlds of like, okay, conventional medicines over here. And it’s all evil because they just feed you medications, and they just, you know, they’re in cahoots with the pharmaceutical companies and, and you can see a lot of that out of certain sources. And it’s like, and then over here, it’s like the other extreme version of like, you got to walk this fine line, you can never even take a smell of bread, baking, because you’re gonna be poisoned with gluten, just by exposure there. Or, you know, whatever it is, that’s like this very extreme edge. And we know how genetically susceptible people are to things like gluten, and I’m not trying to downplay that. But most people can’t live on that rage razor edge of what some people in functional medicine, say is required to get better. And it almost sets the patient up from the front end for failure because it’s just not anything that they think is achievable. Like, oh, you know, Dr. Tate, you’re just like, you know, you must do hours of work a day on yourself and have and it’s no I’ve just I’ve built better systems overtime where things have become more automatic for me. But if you don’t have that knowledge and that foundational knowledge like I didn’t even understand it to begin, we got to get you to that point and then again, what what is doable for you and walk you forward, but when it comes to the relationship with other providers, depending on Where they are on those two ends of the spectrum. It’s challenging, right because I have had patients that are co-treated by a functional medicine doc or nature Pathak physician or somebody in that space, and they’re running their playbook with the patient. And then you have the conventional train doc over here was maybe a rheumatologist taking care of the patient with his tools or her tools. And the patients trapped in the middle of these worlds. And then they come to see me, they add a third provider to the mix. And then it’s like, tier point, how, you know, how do we all talk because, in my training as a physiatrist, physical medicine, rehab Doc, we did these rounds in the hospital where we had all the people at the table. We had your primary care, Doc, you know, we had the subspecialist over here, we had the various physical therapist or occupational therapists, psychologists, the whole team sat around the table and said, How do we get this person better? independent, home, and out of this hospital? And that was our focus. But you know, as we know, when we get out in these words, when we’re all in our own privacy practices, and the communication isn’t there, what it creates is a lot of confusion for the patient. So without communication, there’s so much confusion. And I think it’s a really challenging thing. And you know, I think the only way I’ve, I’ve approached it is telling patients like it’s not an either-or thing. Like I read an email this morning of a woman that said, Hey, can you help me get off these poisonous medications my rheumatologist has me on? Well, no question. If we look at how some of those medications work, I mean, some of them aren’t chemotherapy agents, right? It’s literally poison. So I get what she’s saying. But man, if we’re going to pull her off that and think just giving her like a curcumin capsule is going to fix her inflammation right now, it’s not going to happen, she’s going to be in a world of pain. So we need to bridge that gap. And ideally, bring that person into the conversation. But I’m sure you found that challenging and your practice, I find it challenging in mind to get providers that understand enough of what we do, to not find it threatening. But we can really integrate those two worlds and say, okay, the patient needs to be seeing you for some of that treatment, I’m going to be working with her in this space. Collectively, aren’t we all on the same page, trying to get this patient better. So she can live more functionally have less pain and have the best quality of life she can. And if you’re threatened by me teaching her about nutrition. Like, you know, it’s just kind of then it does become ignorance because that’s all I’m doing is working with your patient to help her understand her lifestyle and nutrition better. Something that you’re not really focusing on, and I don’t expect you to. So it’s, it is like it is that dance, we got to walk sometimes.
Because I think they’ll look at things through a different lens that may be useful and complementary to what I’m doing. It’s not all bad. And I think when things are presented that way, it can be a disservice to patients to think like they got to pick one of the two worlds, either. I’m all in over here on the integrative functional medicine side. And I’m just going to pull myself off all my medications without telling my doctor and go over here. And that can be really detrimental to some people. And I’m sure you’ve seen those, quote, train wreck people come in who have done that to themselves, saying I don’t want that version, I want this healthier version. And they’ve tried to cobble together this system, but you know, they need an expert like you, they need an expert guide that guides them up that path if we’re going to get them where they want to go. So it’s I’m still challenged by my practice to find people, you know, in my community that really understand what I do really understand that I’m complimenting what they’re doing. And over time, sure, it may minimize some of the work they need to be doing. And I and I see there are some times that we just got to form the network of people that get it and want to work together collaboratively. And the folks that don’t get it, I tell the patients over time, you know, you may just want to look elsewhere to find somebody to do that component for you.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, it’s a great answer that you have. You spoke about it earlier, in terms of the entire integrative approach. I think that the point I was gonna say earlier with that navios study that you’ve you’ve cited is that, at the end of the study, he talks about the book of medicine, the second book of the medicine being written, the first one is the acute base, which was great. And the second one is more of the not so much the chronic base, but the life cycle of healing that isn’t gonna be applied with the same acute based approaches. So it’s a paradigm shift. And it’s an educational shift. And for patients and doctors alike, and I think that doing stuff like this and having a podcast, because I know like if I have a client who when I used to do more brick and mortar and come in and they didn’t know what gluten was, I did a bad job of like you’re not we can’t talk like No offense, but we can’t talk like I’m got too many other things that are gonna go over your head. And you’re not going to understand and if you don’t know that, and I think that’s our responsibility as providers to educate because that’s what a doctor does is they teach. And I think that if they’re not answering asking the right questions, which, in today’s day and age, john, I’m sure you see it the edge, this, the patient is much more sophisticated, they have a lot more knowledge, on fact, at a fault, right, they’re there, they’re going too much into the research. And I let them know I want to free you have that I don’t want you spending valuable energy doing that. Because if your weak link in the chain is musculoskeletal pain and inflammation, you’re going to only add more fuel to the fire in that area. And it’s going to manifest as joint pains or brain fog, or headaches. So I like what you’re saying in terms of it’s a fine line, we can only do our best to educate. And I like expectations in terms of what are your goals? And how can I reach them? And does that make sense? Are we a good fit for each other? Maybe I’m not a good fit for you. And I’ve also said to what you’ve said is I’m teen patient. I’m not teen Joel, you know, or Auntie john, I’m teen patient, you know, so what I want is, I want to do what’s right by you, I think that I’m open to a dialogue with that other doctor, and let them know what I’m doing, and how what they’re doing can complement what I’m doing or what I’m doing can complement what you’re doing. And let’s get the patient feeling better. And unfortunately, not all doctors are there in that mindset. Either they’re insecure, or they’re jaded, or they’re just tired, whatever it is, you know. So the other question I wanted to get into if you’re open to it is regenerative medicine. So what exactly are stem cells? What is platelet you know, PRP? What is that? What does it do? And how does it facilitate healing?
Dr. John Tait: Yeah, it’s easy to question and can be a broad answer. So we’ll keep it at a high-level today. But you know, your body, the default mechanism of your body is cellular regeneration, right until you take your last breath. That’s what your body’s doing for you. It’s remarkable, right that these cells, just turnover and turnover, and repair these tissues over time. Now, what we know as we age is our ability to turn those cells over slows, it can be compromised by some of the things that we’re talking about. Depending on this, like an allostatic load of stress that’s on our body every day, it’s going to compromise. And, you know, grind up that time faster for people. But if we get them recalibrated the right way, thinking the right things, doing the right things for their body. Okay, now let’s look at what these cells actually do in your body. So everybody’s cut their finger before, and it bleeds. And if it’s not as a super deep cut, it clots, and it stops bleeding. But internally, what’s going on there, when we cut through some capillaries to get some bleeding like that, we’re releasing these different cells. And we see the red blood because there are red cells there. But what we can’t see is the white cells and the platelets, usually, but platelets have these reservoirs of growth factors within them. And they’re released into that environment and your cells chemically communicate and talk to one another. And so the injured tissue is telling the other cells in your body, you’re injured, number one, number two, you need some help over here, cleaning up the mess. And number three, over time, we’re going to have to repair this mess. And it’s nothing we have to think about right our body is beautifully designed to do this for us. And over a few days or a week or a couple of weeks, we can no longer see we’re even cut our finger right? completely healed and mended itself. And so, you know, in the 1990s
what came about is the use of this reality in a lot of facial cosmetic surgery dentistry for like these, you know, you know, things are retreating. And then it started to spill over into the orthopedic field where the mechanism of healing, we know goes through these stages of inflammation and cell recruitment and repair and strengthening and remodeling. But we could induce these responses in a tissue that said, or say failed to heal over an expected length of time. And now we could go in there and needle that injury with these growth factors really deliver it to the site of this injured tissue and stimulate a healing response with that tissue. So that’s very briefly how platelets work stem cells in our body. You know, that are found in multiple sources. They can be circulating in our bloodstream, but they’ve held in the reservoirs of our bones or bone marrow. We also have a seminar on adipose tissue or fat tissue, there are a fraction of stem cells. And these are much more powerful than platelets because the old school thinking was this cell would interact with this environment where it was injured. So we’re giving up this homing beacon of injury. And these cells in our body migrate and are attracted to that signaling that’s given off. And then this stem cell can literally convert into a new cell to help that struggling tissue. And then around 2013, or 14, we realized that beyond just this cell differentiation, as we called it, there is this process by which our cells are releasing these packets of growth factors with a kind of a blueprint, you know, that it’s sending on its way, hey, here’s the growth factor material and the blueprint that grows some new things. And we call those packets or they did exosomes, sort of stem cells release these axes ohms, into the environment. And now we can have a one to many cell response. And that’s really where things have taken off. Since that time, it’s just like hockey, stick it up with all the different biologic products that now we can acquire from various sources or, and take them from the patient. So taking them out of your cell reservoirs, whether it’s your bone marrow, like in the back of your hip, your ileum is where I harvest those from, or adipose off the flank, or drawing your blood and getting platelets. But they all induce this, this amazing healing response. And if our body is set up the right way, and then we put these in there, it can really nudge this tissue to turn around. And, you know, I’ve seen cases of people that are bone on bone slated for knee replacements that we’ve treated. I talked to a woman the other day, she’s 80% better happy as she can be her X-ray still looks horrific. But because it’s not gonna grow an entire layer of cartilage back in our knee. But I tell people, it’s much like the crappy roads around your town if you have any. They don’t always go out there and tear the road down to dirt and rebuild it. What do they do, they topcoat it, they fill in the potholes, they seal it the same thing, if we got these cracks and potholes and our cartilage, we can fill those, we can decrease that inflammatory chaos in your joints, so you don’t feel as painful. If it’s a tissue, like a ligament or a tendon in the shoulder, that tissues, you know, partially torn, we can get it to heal and mend itself. So I mean, it’s really cool. And it’s been a game-changer in the orthopedic field over the last decade-plus, that we can now do these things that are so far less invasive than surgery, because many of these people, unfortunately, get stuck in this middle space where it’s like, okay, you can take medications, you can get cortisone shots in your knee, but it’s not working anymore. And maybe the patient’s too young, they’re in their early 50s. And they say, hey, you’re way too young to replace your knee. I don’t want to you know,
Dr. John Tait: The doc surgeon rightfully says, Hey, if we’re going to replace your knee, we want it to last a long time. If we only get 20 years out of that knee, we should wait. Replace it later. So what do you do? In the meantime? What do you do for the next decade? Just, you know, again, back to our point earlier, do you just stay miserable? Or is there something now that we can do an intervention and this is the something that really, a lot of those patients that I see are in that middle space where it’s like, man, I, I don’t want the surgical option, or I’m too young for it? I certainly don’t want to live on medication forever, because they’re not really working, they make me feel terrible, or they’re tearing up my gut or whatever. This gives us just a plethora of tools now that we can use to really target that injured tissue.
Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s great. And I think that, that I can see why that naville like, you know, I was thinking like, as you were saying that that should be required reading for any regenerative medicine practitioner, any practitioner for that matter, but specifically in the rehab and regeneration of tissues. But you kind of went upstream and thought about the cell danger response to why in the first place, the body kind of broke down as it did as well which kudos to you for doing that. I always like to ask my clients, this, my clients, but the people that I interview on this podcast, the last question that I think is really helpful for the listeners and it’s Hey, Dr. John, knowing what you know now because you can see your knowledge and you’ve put a lot of work into this and you have your own personal story. And you work with people one on one so it means a lot to hear your answer to this. But what would you say to the young may be easily breaking down john or even the misguided john or the john that needed the older why Sage john to give him advice that you know now, what would that be? What would those words of wisdom be to the younger self now?
Dr. John Tait: Great question. Yeah, I think it’s the most impactful thing that that I’m doing now my practice is trying to get the people earlier in their life. Like, to that point, if I could go back to that time and say, Man, like, you’re driving really hard in these areas, you know, you’re building a practice, you’re doing this training at a high level. Because that’s, that’s what we know how to do. And we have that resiliency in our 20s and our 30s. And at some point, though, if we’re not deeply taking care of the right things in our world, whether it’s our psychology, our relationships, our health, or nutrition, and there’s plenty of physicians, as I know, that aren’t the healthiest specimens in the world, your body will get to that point where it will stop you. Right? It knows you’re not giving it enough attention. And that, whether we call it the cell danger response, or whatever it is, it’s a breaking point, your body cumulatively keeps the score. And if it knows, you’re not giving it enough, at some point, it will shut you down. Right. So you know that that is the thing that man, if I look back in time, and you know, the things that we put our effort and our energy sometimes into that are beyond our control are the things we like, get us, you know, frustrated or stressed. In our work. It’s really now I’ve done a lot of work in the last decade to understand that. And now learning more, you know, I guess, stoic philosophy of like, what, what really is in my control? What isn’t? You know, what actions, what mindset Can I have about how I approach my day? and not waste time? Because you know, that time is such a finite resource of like, Man, what am I giving my time to? And my practice, you know, whether it’s my patients, you know, am I working with the right people that really, you know, like, what I do value what I do, and we have this great working relationship? Or is it this tug of war, or maybe it’s people that are in the business, and I have a lot of young professionals that are very successful in their practice, but their body is beaten up, it’s fatigued, it’s worn out, and these guys are in their late 20s? And I’m just like, Whoa, like, we got to, like, we got to intervene now, because what are your 40s? And your 60s is gonna look like? So I think it’s, it’s a deep question that, you know, has to be very personalized to that, that individual, but it’s, you know, what we do like you said, we’re teachers, you know, we, we want to pass our knowledge that we’re learning and studying, like you said, there’s so much out here in our space, but bring it all the way down to just the fundamentals. Because I think what I see the misses is, as things have exploded in the world of you know, biohacking and everything else that people are into, and there’s, there’s really cool stuff out there. But people are leapfrogging over just the basics. You know, and they’re grinding too many hours, there’s not enough reset time in their day, not enough reset time, and their weekend. You know, there’s just imbalance in their life, you know, and, like, identifying that earlier, can keep the body from getting into that breaking point. And just, you know, really keeping it simple on the foundational things like, you know, what I do more than anything is pull people off supplements rather than add more to their list. You know, it’s like, hey, let’s, let’s have a reason for all these things we’re using and make it sensical, test some things instead of guess, and really get a playbook that you can use that’s going to pay you back year after year after year for that time that you’re putting into those things. But it’s Yeah, I don’t have a perfect answer to that. But I think for me, it’s like, man, I was driving a lot of energy into the wrong places, you know, and thinking about if I would have just channeled this energy somewhere else, like, how much different that would be?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, you’re talking about wisdom, you know, that’s what was his and you wish you would have had more wisdom before you had to go through the trials and tribulations that born wisdom, you know, and kind of like a catch 22. I got a couple of ideas in terms of Did you ever read that book, Who Moved My Cheese by Spencer Johnson, I think his name is it’s a very quick read. Again, it’s about these mice that have this station, where they have cheese in there every day. And they put on their running shoes, and they go in there and they get their cheese and then they expect it to be there. And I think their names are hem and haw, right? And so they finally one day, the cheese’s in there, and they’re having a nine but the thing is, is that they weren’t taking steps. They weren’t taking stock of their surroundings, and they weren’t aware of the changing nature of demands in their body. And it’s really like Who Moved My Cheese for the body so to speak, in terms of understanding the load that stress plays on your body and being aware of it because it’s no surprise you know, that when you do break down you’re not Avoid it and you look back and you kind of play the movie reel of your health. You see, there are no big surprises in terms of why did this happen? You know, late nights coffee, poor nutrition, lack of activity, bad mental processes. Just it’s not a surprise. So look in the mirror, take accountability, and maybe get a little more wisdom before you have to go through some of those major trials and tribulations I think. So as far as dr. john great information, how would I if I want to learn more a little bit about what you do? How would I find out about who you are? where you are? Where are you on? on social media or websites? Or anything like that? How would I get in contact with you?
Dr. John Tait: Sure. On social, Facebook, and Instagram, it’s just Dr. John Tate, Jo, h n ta IIT. My practice rep website is rejuv Medical sw.com. So our AJ UV, medical, SW calm. There’s a lot of different things we have on there. You know, to get people to understand this world, you know, I wrote a guide for, you know, just a consumer guide to regenerative medicine, if people know nothing of this stuff, and they want to learn the basics. You know, we have some, you know, simple things like that on our website that are totally free resources, people can download those, you know, start to just learn that there are other things out there, that maybe they’ve been offered, because they just haven’t been in the right. clinics, right? But the people that know these things exist, right? I still encounter many primary care Doc’s physical therapists. chiropractors don’t matter what their background is, but some of them have never even heard of this stuff. So I think that, as you said, we have everything at the tips of our fingers online now, you know, and it’s almost we’re saturated with information, but sometimes we’re still not finding the right information.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, great information. JOHN, I appreciate your time. Wish you the future success you and your family in your practice and the clients and patients that you work with. And when it goes this well with the podcast, I always leave the door open for you to come back for another interview. So I appreciate your time today and I wish all the best to you in the future.
Dr. John Tait: No, my pleasure is a lot of fun and yeah, I’ll certainly be back anytime.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Take care.
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