How the PAM Enzymes Is Involved in Energy Production 101


Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their health back. And I had to do an inventory on what number this is morally, this is number seven. And there’s always new information, especially when you go on a sabbatical when you’re in research, and you’re looking at what’s going on, and all that good stuff. I’m sure everyone knows who you are.

But just in case they don’t, I just wanted to mention that you are the organizer and the producer, and the founder of the root cause protocol, as well as the magnesium advocacy group. And really, I believe your mission morally, is to dispense the truth on what’s going on in the world, and what’s going on with mineral balancing. And maybe you can just sort of piggyback from there.


Morley Robbins: Yeah, no, I appreciate the intro. And oh, my gosh, seven, seven conversations. That’s amazing. I, I like to separate fact, from fiction. And I think what dominates the worlds of healing and nutrition is a lot of fiction, a lot of narrative. And people don’t realize that. And so it’s been an amazing process of discovery over the last 15 years to see, what the literature says because I regard that as a will a bedrock of reality. Because if you’re going to uncover some uncomfortable truths, you’re going to publish it. And there’s a lot of goals, and then and then now hills, and I’ve been blessed enough to be able to identify a lot of articles. I came across a piece of paper that I put together, it was February of this year. And it was top 100 articles that I had read.

And I just wanted to challenge myself. And I think I did like 65 just by memory alone. And I’ve been working to fill out the rest of the other 35. But you know, it’s there about 25 or 30 authors who I’ve come to rely on, and they’re all truthers. They’re all really committed to making sure that people know that the cold hard reality of what really runs the body, what runs the planet, if you will, in terms of metabolic standpoint, it has been fascinating to kind of weave that together in a tapestry, and help people understand what’s going on.


Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s awesome. I know one of your sayings. And you’ve mentioned the story about how when you asked noted research, and I don’t remember who it was, what’s new, and he mentioned to you it’s not what’s new, it’s what’s enduring. And what’s great is that I would have been more skeptical to think that newer produced research would be to stand the test of time and endure because of the politics and the gaming and the motivation behind the research. But it sounds like the research is still enduring as it trudges through time, I guess, is that correct?


Morley Robbins: Absolutely true. No, it’s, it’s interesting. I mean, researly evolved during the course of the 19th and 20th centuries, and now the 21st century. But it’s, it still has this bedrock of commitment to what’s really going on. I think things did change, though, during the Reagan era, when the funding for research moved away from the government and went more toward Big Pharma.

A lot of research is being funded by the fox that’s guarding the henhouse. And like, we’ve got to be careful about the conclusions we draw from that. But for the most part, it is this paragon of stable truth that we can rely on.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, and I guess it’s you know who the author is. And once they’ve established their credibility, you’re more relying on the truth of that. So right, so one of the things that we’ve been meaning to touch base on for a while, is the PacM enzyme and how volatile and pivotal that is for everything that goes on in the body. So maybe give the listeners who even if they haven’t followed, followed all six previous ones of these ones, but why, why it fits so nicely in the jigsaw of this mosaic.


Morley Robbins: It’s interesting. There’s a theme around blue when it comes to copper. We’ve talked about the blue protein, so Reuleaux plasmon, we’ve talked about the blue complex, which is complex for of the mitochondria. We’ve talked about the locus Cyrillus the Blue Dot, which is at the top of our brainstem on either side, there’s literally a blue dot that’s full of copper that’s critical for maintaining our, health and well-being. And I’ve often thought that there was a blueprint, but I wasn’t quite sure what it was.

And so my first awareness of the importance of a blueprint, if you will, goes back to 2010. I read the book mastering leptin, a great book, and talked about, the hormone that tells us to stop eating. It’s like I’ve had enough. But what people may not know is that if we have too much insulin in our body, because we have insulin resistance, or the insulin overpowers the leptin, and so when there’s insulin resistance, we’re just going to keep eating. And that’s, that’s a serious problem. That’s, that’s behind a lot of the weight gain and obesity issues that people have around the world. But it really begs the question, well, why are these? Why are these hormones working? Right? But why is there insulin resistance?

And so if I were to give you a toy right now, be kind of hard because there’s a couple of 100 miles in between us, but let’s say I handed you a toy, and I forgot to put it, put a battery in it. After a little while, you’d stop playing with it. And if we went clinical, we’d say well, Joel is suffering from playtime resistance, not resistance, that the toy doesn’t work. And because it’s missing a battery? Well, it turns out that insulin is just like a little toy. It needs a battery, it needs to be turned on.

And I didn’t know I mean, like I said, I’ve been studying the hypothalamus and some of the neuro Hepta peptides that are produced and regulated out in the hypothalamus. Going back to 2010, I was somebody that was just fascinated by this part of the brain. And it’s, you know, it’s where electrical energy becomes chemical energy. And that’s where all the master regulatory hormones are things that like, run the adrenals and run the thyroid and run a lot of things in our body. It’s sort of a who’s who of neuroendocrine chemistry.

And so I didn’t really appreciate what was involved with an enzyme called the PAM enzyme, spelled PM. But it stands for a big word. It’s called peptidyl, glycine, and alpha-emanating monooxygenase. Like, wow, that’s a mouthful. So what it’s referring to is peptides that end with a glycine group. And they’re always on what’s called the C terminal. And so a protein chain has an n-term terminal and a c-term. And the C terminal is always next to a glycine. amino acid is the way Mother Nature designed it.

And what this Pam enzyme does is it goes after the glycine peptide with the glycine at the end, it cuts off the C terminal, the carboxyl-terminal that’s carbon with oxygen and hydrogen takes that off and then puts on an aiming group, which is nitrogen and to hydrogen and turn turns it on. It’s like literally going from black and white to suddenly the lights are on.

And when I first started studying this enzyme, there were 13 neuro peptides. You know, things like TRH, thyroid regulating hormone and CRH cortical Tropen regulating hormone and oxytocin and vasopressin and these big blockbuster hormones. Well, there are 13, Gateway 243 43, gateway to over 70, over 70, gateway to 279 and 279 Recently gateway to 127 of these signaling peptides that are just like our cell phones. We use cell phones to communicate with each other. Right?

And if we don’t have power, and if we don’t have bars, are we you and I can’t talk to each other right now? And these signaling peptides are the same way. So insulin, leptin Greenlane, and all these amazing hormones are signaling peptides. And they don’t work unless they’re turned on. Now the part that’s absolutely amazing is it. I originally thought that, that the payments, I only worked in the hypothalamus. So if we drill a hole here, and until the hole here, we’re gonna get to the hypothalamus. And it’s the size of an ottoman. It’s got 64 chambers, it’s, it’s absolutely amazing what happens there. But I really thought it was just restricted to the hypothalamus. Well, it turns out, it’s not just the hypothalamus, it’s the pituitary. It’s the whole endocrine system, its adrenals, its organs, its bones, is all of our tissue needs to have access to this Pam enzyme.

And think of it this way. The body makes what are called Pro hormones. They’re not active, but they’re in a state where they can be made active. So think of it as think of it as parked cars, on a highway. They’re there, they’re parked, they can’t be used, but they’re available. And the payment time is what turns them on. So they can get on the autobahn, and start to do their thing. And what really happens is the hormone-like insulin. When it gets when it becomes bioactive, when it becomes fully active, it’s able to fit into its receptor perfectly. And that everything is all about making sure that there’s a perfect connection between the hormone and its receptor. Because what’s the hormone doing? It’s got signals, right? It’s got to download its payload, it’s got to inform the cell and the tissue about what needs to happen. Well, if it’s not active, it doesn’t have the right shape. It’s not hydrophobic. It it’s half-life is shortened because it’s not active.

And so it really compromises the body’s ability to communicate and regulate when the PAM enzyme is not working. Well, what makes the PAM enzyme so special? Well, it has very finite requirements. It’s got to have copper. It’s got to have oxygen, monooxygenase. Oh, it’s got to work on the oxygens are there. It’s got to have a score bait out that ascorbic acid ascorbate is very different. When you look at ascorbate, you’ll see a bunch of oxygens available on the outside of the molecule.

And it needs the right pH. And what will surprise people to find out is that it prefers acidic pH, not alkaline pH. So if you’ve got a kangen machine, you might want to unplug it right now. Because maybe you don’t need to be doing that. But the thing is, this enzyme is the blueprint. I’m convinced of it because it is activating 100 of these signaling peptides all over the body. And, the thing is that we got to really be mindful of that. And be aware that, well, if insulin can’t get into its receptor, and it’s signal, what’s going on with the sugars, well, then the sugar starts to build out, the insulin starts to build up. And then there’s this cascade of dysfunction that follows it. And one of the most important aspects of that is that when sugars do build up, people can go into a state of what’s called hyperglycemia. High blood sugar. Well, a group of Russian scientists figured out in 2019 that if if the body does become hyperglycaemic, it affects the copper protein. So Reuleaux plasmon Ansarullah plasmon

is the master antioxidant protein that runs our body and it blows up and the copper comes leaking out. And what doctors have been trained to do is blame the copper for the rising sugar, when in fact it’s the sugar that’s affecting the conformational structure of the Cirilo plasma If no one’s thinking about that, no one’s thinking about the fact that await the insulin isn’t signaling, right? Because it’s not the right shape can’t get into the receptor, and then that’s gonna affect all the other downstream. And so, think of it as a Russian doll. Right? This is insulin was a peptide over here called chromogranin. A, you may never have heard of it CGA. Well, if CGA doesn’t get activated, insulin can’t get activated. And so there’s a whole family of peptides in between chromogranin, a, and insulin that all need to be activated.

And it’s, it’s like, oh, my gosh, it’s beautiful. It’s elegant. But it’s, it’s a lot more complicated than we realized. And so all of the focus is on insulin, no one’s talking about glucagon, no one’s talking about GLP. No one’s talking about all these other intermediary hormones that are critically important, they may not be as big as insulin. But there is the importance of insulin. And so here’s the part that I think will surprise you. And then I think there’s a part that will shock you. So the part that will surprise you, and you and your listeners is to find out that this Pam enzyme is not taught in Doctor school. I’ve talked to dozens of doctors, nobody knows what I’m talking about. And I don’t bring it up to be to embarrass anyone, I’m just like, this is a really important part of our physiology.

And there’s a big blank slate out there about what’s going on and what this thing does. And so the fact that the doctor doesn’t know about it, and the fact that you know, our clients and patients don’t know about it, that’s really significant. But the part that I learned yesterday, which really surprised me was that there’s, as I’ve said, there’s a protein chain that has two ends to it. There’s an end terminal and a C terminal, where the end terminal is agnostic about whether the protein is turned on or not. The C terminal is very much interested in knowing whether it’s on or off. All of the assays of blood markers looking at proteins, hormones, and signaling peptides are based on the N N terminal. None are on the C term. So basically, we’re getting information, we’re getting blank information about these are all parked cars on a highway that can’t be driven. And we’re making critical decisions about people’s health based on incomplete information.

And I think that’s shocking, that, that the entire infrastructure of medicine is based on the no one knows about this enzyme. And no one is testing the right end of the peptide. And I just I’m like, Oh my gosh, this is mind-blowing. And then you realize that the PAM enzyme really is the blueprint. Because it’s it’s activating all these signaling peptides that are communicating, saying, how are you doing what’s going on? Do you need an adjustment here or there, you know, you as a chiropractor know how important adjustments are. And that’s what the signaling peptides are doing constantly adjusting their signal, adjusting the information based on what’s happening.

And it’s all based on the intelligence of copper. And it’s like, a complete component of physiology that no one is talking about. No one is aware of me, there are people at Hopkins and the University of Connecticut’s medical standard that are very well steeped in this, but it’s not mainstream at all. We are there with the professionals, with the lay people, and then we find out the laboratories or even testing the right form of these peptides. So I just, I find it. absolutely mind-blowing. And I appreciate the chance to have this conversation too, to kind of tease it out a little bit and help people understand why it’s so important.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s awesome. Thank you for the work that you do to tease that out. Morley, as far as a couple of things come into my brain when you’re saying this so no one’s talking about it, but it’s there for the research. So are there for the finding the articles that are being published about it? So what sort of as a side question, what do you feel happened? In swear, this research that doesn’t just get to go out and you know, an email, and then next thing, you know, it appears in a publication, it’s got to be approved and so forth. But when it is why is it not being taken by the baton and passed to the next level? What goes wrong with that?


Morley Robbins: Wonderful question. I’ve thought about that many times, I’ve just come to realize that there’s a Chinese wall, between the research labs in the classrooms. And the adage, it takes 40 years before the bench research gets into the bedside. And I don’t know what that’s about. I mean, it’s just, it’s almost like a whole generation of practitioners needs to fall off before the next generation will pick it up. Right? But it’s like, it’s, it doesn’t pass the logic test doesn’t. If we, if we learned that this enzyme is so critical, why would we want everyone to know about this, and, you know, people always challenging me about the term that you and I have talked about it, the term of copper toxicity, when you know, I find it changed my whole narrative around it.

Now, I’ve decided that the right copper is toxic to Big Pharma profit, that’s really what it is, copper does so much inside our body, to create energy, clear exhausts, you know, its colors, everything that connects everything. And now we find out this profound function of activating all of the endocrine and exocrine and paracrine and neuroendocrine and enteroendocrine, so it’s like, it’s just unbelievable numbers of signaling peptides that need to be turned on. And, and it’s, it’s not, what people need to realize is some of these peptides, up-regulate some downregulate. And they’re in communication with each other. You know, so, glucagon is supposed to be communicating with adiponectin. And, you know, with insulin, angiotensin is connecting with adiponectin, as well as like, leptin and ghrelin are supposed to be communicating with each other. But if there’s too much insulin, it doesn’t happen.

And so it’s, it’s just this incredible menagerie of chemistry that needs to be active, not parked on the side of the highway. And I think, for the listeners to understand, despite the chest being out there that were anemic and copper toxic, the truth is just the opposite. But we live in a world where glyphosate is a dominant feature of farming, and glyphosate is a perfect copper key later. Fructose is a dominant part of food processing. Well, fructose is a perfect copper key later, we live in a world where medicine is using antibiotics, and statins, very prevalently. And they have a huge effect on copper status. Well, when you start to combine all of that, and those are just four components, you begin to see the disappearing batteries inside your body.

And despite the appearance of this really sophisticated breakdown of the human body, it’s a body that’s missing its batteries. And then we’ve talked about it, copper is the general and iron is the foot soldier. And it’s no more sophisticated than that. You don’t need to be in the military general, there’s a difference between generals and foot soldiers. Generations have more brass, right? They’ve got more brass on their shoulder, well, that’s made of copper. But if you really want to clarify it, just picture the Battle of the bolts without padding.

That’s the impact of a general The reason why he was so important. He in two days, move 200 tanks and 200,000 men from going east to going north. At one point he was directing traffic. So that’s the power of a general and I think copper plays the exact same role inside our body. And if our environment can’t communicate with itself, both our internal environment, communicating with itself but also reacting to the external environment, well, then we can’t possibly expect to be in balance and be in homeostasis.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. So so if I’m listening to this, and I’m not understanding 100% of the science, but thinking that it really does sound like doom and gloom, as far as is this one of those instances where the broken clock is right to eat twice a day kind of thing morally, where the sense is where we do get enough. Like, why aren’t we dying like yesterday? Like, why? I mean, why? Like, how do we with this all being said, and Pam ends, I’m not basically charging these hormones to communicate? Why do we see improvements in longevity? And in some people and why, you know, I mean, I guess to play devil’s advocate, why are we?


Morley Robbins: Yeah, no, I think we have to, we have to draw a distinction between lifespan and health span, people may be living longer, but I don’t think they’re living better. I think there’s ample proof that we are a pretty sickly lot on this planet. When you begin to get into the statistics of the number of people who have metabolic syndrome, the number of people who have diabetes alone, heart disease is still the number one cause of death. Cancer is right on its heels, you begin to look at the impact that uric acid is having, in large part because of the level of fructose in our diet as well. This is not doom and gloom. This is trying to put an electron microscope on what’s the problem? Why are we why are we in this sea of metabolic dysfunction, and not understand what what’s going on?

And it’s because this enzyme is a critical component of our neuro chemistry and our physiology, and if it’s not working, then we will get diabetes, and we will get anxiety, and we will get osteoporosis. And we will get, you know, all sorts of physical ailments. And if you don’t know about copper, if you don’t, if you don’t understand the incredible power and impact of a bioavailable copper, then then the Merck manual makes sense. Oh, there are 20,000 Different forms of disease, and we just HAVE TO TINKER AWAY at each one.

Or we could begin to understand, oh, so we’ve got over 800 signaling peptides, and they all got to be fed with copper, and they know how to work. And that’s what the pioneering work of Richard means. And Betty Piper has assembled an amazing team of people when they were at Hopkins, and they went up to UConn Medical Center at the beginning of 2000. And they did some really important research in 2009 10, and 11. And the bottom line was that they were studying defects in the PAM gene.

And what happened to the expression of the PAM enzyme as a result of those defects? And they looked at the impact of copper deficiency, studying, you know, rats and mice. And what they found was that there was a parallel expression between whether there was a defective gene, or whether it was a copper deficient situation, then they did the most amazing thing they fed the rodents cover. And guess what happened? The enzyme turned right back on and was just fine. Thank you very much. And so I think, to dispel this idea of doom and gloom, no, this is to sharpen the focus on why we’re all struggling with our well-being. Because we didn’t know that the environment of Copper has been shrinking outside of our body and inside of our bodies. And we don’t have that copper.

And if we can’t make it bioavailable, then the body doesn’t communicate, the body can’t maintain its homeostasis, the body can’t regulate energy production, and clear the exhaust. And that’s really important to understand. So I think it it’s a case of we’ve been led to believe in disease, when in fact, while there are these incredibly sophisticated mechanisms of communication that just aren’t being fed properly, and our ancestors didn’t have the, the challenges, the toxins, the all the barriers to maintaining good health that we have in the modern era. And I think it’s important for people to realize just how central this one enzyme is to so much of what ails us.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it almost seems like the analogy I see is, is that I’ve been bitten by a venomous snake and the antidote is out there. But we’re searching high and low and selling other things that you To contain massive amounts of profit for the people that produce them to not give the actual anecdote that simple. And is is that a fair analogy?


Morley Robbins: Yeah, it is. In fact, it’s very fitting because all of the critters that have them know the bugs, the mosquitoes, the snakes, the scorpions, whatever. They have a very targeted focus. Their venom wipes out a key copper enzyme. It’s called superoxide dismutase. And what the venom depends on is the payments, I’m inside that critter.

And so the critters that are biting us aren’t faced with, the devastating loss of copper in their supply and their food supply. But the humans that they’re biting, are struggling to get the PAM enzyme to work to respond to the bite. That’s where all the controversy is. The Pam enzyme is alive and well in the critters that bite us. And it’s not so well in in the individuals. And this is all new information on even though I’ve been studying it for so long. It’s just been in the last few weeks, and I’ve really come to understand the enormity of it.

And Dr. Liz and I recently saw a great movie. If you haven’t seen it, I would encourage you to see it. It’s about Yogi Berra, a famous Yankee catcher, and it’s called it ain’t over. Very entertaining movie about his gifted baseball playing, it sort of been eclipsed because of his personality. People have forgotten what a great ballplayer he was. But he coined many phrases called Yogi isms, right? Well, he also coined a word called Simplexity. And I’ve taken it to heart. And I’ve, I really enjoy taking complex ideas and trying to boil them down into simple concepts that the average person can understand. Well, that’s what we’re talking about the Simplexity, of the PAM enzyme.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? It’s amazing to see you know, from a spectator sport, your evolution, as you go further and further down these rabbit holes, just the implications that having bioavailable Copper has beyond I mean, you know, from, from, I guess a general sense, the four main things of energy production and clearing, exhausts and supporting the immune system, and then also supporting other reactions. But actually seeing all the minutia of why, and continuing to focus further and further and further.

So I just want to summarize a couple of things. Because one of the things that I see a lot that you’ve taught is the lack of bioavailable copper being loaded into circular plasm. And having a percent that is not available. And I put a lot of emphasis morally on the vitamin A to D ratio so that the A can help load in the copper into that circular plasm. But now, from what you’re saying, If I’m interpreting correctly, when we have hyperglycemia, that also causes sort of the exodus of the copper being loaded into soil plasm. That Is that a fair statement?


Morley Robbins: That can work against it? Right. So think of it this way, there are two master enzymes that load copper into enzymes, to these enzymes, low copper and other are called cupro enzymes. And they had the letters ATP, seven A, and ATP seven, B. Seven V is called Wilson’s enzyme, and that’s the enzyme that loads copper to make some Rouleau plasma. And as you noted, you got to have retinol. It’s got to be turned into what’s called retinoic acid. It’s actually a hormone and searching man for diseases retinoic acid requires the PAM enzyme. I haven’t found that yet, but I think it does.

And so though, the pump needs the retinoic acid in order to load the copper into the super-low plasma protein. And as you just noted, wow, if we’ve got a sugar problem, that hyperglycemia according to the researchers in Russia, it’s going to it’s going to cause a problem with the structure and function of solar plasm. And the copper is going to leak out. Okay, that’s a big issue. The other other pump is called ATP seven called the minkeys enzyme. And that enzyme is loading all the other A copper enzymes, an incredible number of copper enzymes. But what’s Especially important is that ATP seven A is what loads the copper into the pan enzyme.

And so you want to make sure that you’ve got the retinol in your diet, to activate the pumps to get the copper into the critical enzymes that are running and regulating the body. And so it just becomes this house that Jack built a series of dominoes that have all got to be lined up. But if you don’t have copper in your diet, if you don’t have retinol in your diet, those are two key components that are going to work against the body’s natural ability to keep itself in balance, but also maintain its energy production and immune system, as you know, and so on and so forth.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, right. And then so to follow that through, where it I always say it becomes just this major Domino, vicious cycle that gathers momentum. So if, if the hyperglycaemic tendency, and the person that’s taking which maybe you can maybe comment and remind the readers after I finished my statement that the nuclear receptor competes with DNA, and if we have too much storage, D, all of that stuff that goes on. But when hyperglycemia states happen, and we have high fructose corn syrup and everything that’s going on, then that causes the copper to come out of the spirulina plasm. But furthermore, it causes the derangement of the PAM enzyme, when we need insulin the most.


Morley Robbins: Absolutely, yeah, I mean, again, we’ve been trained to believe in a disease called insulin resistance. Okay, again, it’s like a toy that doesn’t have a battery. If the insulin hasn’t been turned on. If one of the precursor peptides chromogranin hasn’t been turned on, and then worked its way up the chain of, of signaling peptides, well, then the sugars can’t be clear. Now, what’s interesting, there’s a famous copper researcher that we’ve talked about before, his name is Lesley Club a still actively publishing even though he’s, I think he’s almost 90 years old. Now. He just wrote an amazing article last fall, and it was October 2022. It’s almost a year ago now. But it’s called chronic copper deficiency. And he wrote an article back in 1986, about copper deficiency, and hyperglycemia. High blood sugar, that there is a relationship there. If copper is low, you have a propensity to be high sugar, high per glycemic.

And it makes no mention of the PAM enzyme, in part because the payments had barely been discovered. It was I think it was 82 or 83 when it was first really keenly understood. Well, it’s very likely he didn’t know about that at the time. But what he did know was that people who are copper deficient, have really compromised tolerance on glucose. They’re called glucose intolerant. They can’t, they just they can’t deal with the sugar, sugar becomes very reactive in their body.

And he made a point in this article from 96. He was alluding to a pediatric textbook from 1981. He said the most glucose-intolerant people on the planet are children with monkeys disease. And what that means is these children, most of whom died before they were three years old, their copper pump, ATP seven A doesn’t work. They can’t load copper into the enzymes. And when you can’t load copper into the enzymes, you can’t regulate iron, you can’t regulate oxygen, you can’t regulate sugar, you can’t regulate much of what’s incredibly important for our body. But the most glucose intolerant people are children with monkeys disease.

That was a lightbulb moment. When I read that it’s like a hippie, like a ton of bricks. It’s like, oh my gosh, that means that copper status is that the thick and the center of keeping the body in balance, particularly around sugar. And then when you find out that there’s very sophisticated signaling around that, and there’s a whole series of hormones that need to be at To live and turned on by the PAM enzyme that relies on this battery. And suddenly it’s like, oh, it’s so it’s a game changer in terms of understanding where the defect is and where the breakdown is in our body.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, amazing. So just a curious question. So I know when I do genomic test interpretations, I look at those ATP 718 ATP seven B, but also organized in that part of the pyramid Morleys the ATO x. Right. Is there any relationship with that is that my understanding is that that enzyme helps to deliver that to the ATP seven a and seven B. Is that accurate?


Morley Robbins: I think that might be right. I’m trying to remember if ATP antiques. Is that involved with the mitochondria as well?


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so it’s a copper metallic chaperone protein that is encoded by the ATX one gene. And it plays a key role in delivering copper from the cytosol to the transporters ATP seven, eight, and seven BT.


Morley Robbins: So then they would then at ato x A tox. Is what supplies copper to the other chaperones. Correct for the mitochondria. Right? So so the thing was, people need to know what’s a good way to shut down a detox. Platinum? What is platinum that cisplatin is used in cancer treatment? It’ll shut down a tox. And so what’s also important to know is that glyphosate ki lates copper out of the soil, so we don’t get access to it in our food. What is high fructose corn syrup? Do it block, CTR? One, that’s the front door. Do you look at CTR one?


Dr. Joel Rosen: I’ll have to make a note on it. I don’t see that’ll see that it’s the in the pyramid.


Morley Robbins: In that section, we’ll see TR one is the front door for letting copper into the cell. And if CTR one has been blocked because of fructose, and that’s the work of Myra Fields, back in the 1980s and 1990s. It’s a it’s a serious problem. And people don’t realize the subtle sophistication of copper metabolism, and how finely tuned it is.

But the Don’t, don’t think of it oh my gosh is more complicated, or it’s all a supply issue. You don’t have copper on the front end, that’s why all of these separate things and transport is starting to get affected. We’ve got to have a regular supply of copper. And that the most important message is to get get it out to the populace is that we need these critical nutrients, magnesium, copper, and the real B vitamins to really run the machinery of our body.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, So just as as an aside, I happen to have two or a homozygous snip on the eighth a tox one gene. And I think no matter what if we are all in this environment, and we all have these disruptors to copper metabolism like you’ve said high fructose corn syrup, glyphosate, iron, enriched filings, lack of retinol in our foods, incorporating too much vitamin D, all of the creating fear, like you’ve mentioned, all of these things, whether you have an A tox one gene or not, I what I’ve looked at is that you don’t need as much as those things to tip the balance of power to fatigue and exhaustion and burnout.


Morley Robbins: Yeah, you’re gonna be certainly compromised. But I think to me, I’m the camp that says these gene issues are not permanent. I think they’re more energy driven. And so we’re back into a chicken and egg situation, and what can we do to restore proper energy production that can begin to offset this allele, whatever, whatever the problem might be. And so I think that people need to realize that the research that that Dr Mainz and Dr. Piper did, and there are a husband and wife team, by the way, but they have done amazing research over the decades. They they clearly demonstrated that even if you did have a genetic issue with your PAM enzyme.

It can be recovered with proper copper supplementation. That’s an important message for people to know because the jeans appear very fixed and concrete and scary. And I think they are very malleable and they do respond On to changes in the environment, certainly the energetic environment especially.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, I agree and I, I use it as a blueprint. But at the end of the day,, your lifestyle and what we call the epigenetic factors are going to make those genes run. With the like, I always use the analogy, if a gene analogy is a two-lane highway, when it’s challenged the most and eight lanes highway when it’s not, you could still have a lot of backup on an eight-lane highway, and you could still have the clear edge of a two-lane highway as well. So so as far as the RCP goes, with your new uncovering of the importance of the pm enzyme, does it lead more lend more credence to the the stops and starts that you’ve already put in there? Or does it bring some new concepts into there as well?


Morley Robbins: That’s a great question. I don’t know that we have command of this just yet. On the on the surface, I don’t see changes, big changes certainly are not going to be coming forth. Because I think for whatever reason, we’ve got a very good grasp of it takes to rev up the engine. I think the what the PAM enzyme does is gives us a very clear understanding of where a major part of the problem takes place. I think what it’s also doing is underscoring the importance of proper supplementation, particularly around copper. And I think we’re increasingly skeptical about the prevalence of copper in the food system. And people need to realize that the nutrient tables that you’re relying on are providing information having been updated for a long time.

So it’s very lot of information there. And I think what we need is a regular steady stream of nutrients, which is what the protocol is all about. But I think what it also does, is underscores the importance of staying on top of the iron with blood donations, and the importance of releasing our fears of people. When I first started this work, I didn’t really understand the emotional side of it.

And I was blessed to be working with Rick Walter, who is a clinical psychologist and really had commanded that, and he really tried to pass that on to me. But I don’t think it’s been until the last few years that I really understood the power of the emotional side to affect the physical side. And so I would encourage people to realize that, oh, my gosh, I might have this problem, Gene. Well, what you also have is maybe a chronic Fear Index, and you’ve got to deal with that as well.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, it’s not. just the gene, though. I mean, it’s the test, right? It’s the test result. So they’ll have a test result, and they’re really into there. And I see and I would echo that sentiment is I have to reassure the patients that I work with, that they have everything they need and their power and their ability to heal to overcome this. And when you’re doing the proper principles, you can’t forget that concept of you got this and you know, because that fear is just going to drive you into the ground. And when you’re doing all the right things, but the markers aren’t moving and the person is completely overwrought with fear. It definitely derails them faster than any other thing that I’ve seen with who I work as well.


Morley Robbins: Absolutely true. And I think it’s behind every physical issue is an emotional dynamic, right? You really internalize that, and the emotional release programs are out there, like EFT or EMDR motion code. You don’t need to be lying on a couch for two years to try to figure this out. The whole idea is to get people to release. And that process of release is very empowering.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so too, if we had enough money morally, to start our own little side business, I think two good ventures would be to start to open up an amino acid company that tests the C chain right or the CN. That’s right. And the second one was you sent me something that I had a chance to look at just before we got on the call where it’s only done in rats, but maybe you could tell us about that study where they’re able to determine how well the ratio to whatever it is to SLD. And that gives us a status of copper depletion. Maybe tell us a little bit about that as well.


Morley Robbins: Yeah, this was from an article and with an 87, maybe 90. It was written by a famous copper researcher Joseph Prohaska. But He’s now retired. But he was a real luminary in his field during his heyday. And he was talking about inside the red blood cell. There are two components that can be measured. One is the superoxide dismutase enzyme because the red blood cell produces oxidative stress and produces superoxide anions all the time.

And the s OD is called ESRD erythrocyte s od needs to be able to clear that and that this particular assay picks up whether that is in fact expressing, and the other is a chaperone called CCS. And it’s the copper chaperone for the episode enzyme. And so what they were pointing out is that in copper deficiency, we get this right, I think the so D was low, and the chaperone was high, well, the sample is rising, because there’s looking for copper to try to get there. That’s what I figured Yeah. So it’s trying to get the component, get the battery, to the superoxide dismutase. So that it can maintain homeostasis in the red blood cells.

And so it’s a very revealing test, but it’s not commercially available. And so he was just, he was highlighting its value, and encouraging people to look into it. Well, I know for a fact that it’s not available there. None of the true sensitive tests for copper status are available, I mean, that there are a handful of them. And they’re all just Mia. And that that makes part of the intrigue of doing this work is finding ways to have definitive proof that we have a copper issue. And it’s hard to come by, there are all sorts of measurements of iron, but nothing around copper right?


Dr. Joel Rosen: And so, so eloquently teach that in, in your RCEP training. And one of the main ones is the copper to Serena plasm ratio, which I alluded to a little bit earlier with vitamin E in and glucose or hyperglycemia. So maybe this sort of gives our lead listeners because I always like to hear a little bit of an update on that or just clarify from my understanding is, ideally, you want to have a 3.3 to one ratio of coproducer rule plasm.

And maybe you could tell me again, why it’s 3.3 to one and my analogy morally is always what is it Simplexity? What was the name of the what did you call it? Simplexity Simplexity. My Simplexity is, it is for every glass of orange juice to make it most efficient. You need 3.3 oranges for one orange juice, and every time you use four or five, it’s less efficient. And if it was one, you’re not getting all the good nutrients in there that you need. I think that’s where it starts and ends in terms of how the analogy works. But as far as why is that such a good indication of the intelligence of copper versus Hey, I just my copper is low or my copper is high, so to speak.


Morley Robbins: Right? Yeah, the two most dangerous words and in the field of healing and nutrition are high and low. Everything’s about bioavailability. It’s not high or low. There’s there is no high or low. Is it usable? Is it working? But this actually goes back to research done in 1960 by two famed metal researchers, Dr. Stern Liebe and Scheinberg. They were actually working at AT and T Labs in upstate New York in 1960. And they’re studying copper and so Willow plasmon, and they’re the ones that actually developed this ratio of 100. Part One other part copper to 30 parts of Cirilo plasmas considered ideal, you divide them and it’s 3.33.

And what I’ve come to do is look at that number, that ratio has been logarithmic. So an earthquake of 3.33 is very different than an earthquake of 3.83 and very different than an earthquake of 4.13. And so the thing is, it’s going up by orders of magnitude. So 3.83 versus 3.33. That’s five times greater difference than it should be. Because differences, five, between eight and three, and I expressed it that way to get people’s attention that the balance is off, because well, we’ll look at it. We’ll say oh, it’s I’m just a half a click away from where it’s supposed to make Know You’re five times from where you should be.

And so I think it’s, I don’t really recall the full explanation for why they felt that was key. But what they did indicate was it seemed to reveal that even under low copper, or high copper conditions, the ratio should still be 3.33. And that’s what I’m always looking for when I’m working with clients where is their ratio? Just to make it more exciting. I’ve added a new blood marker to the panel. And it’s looking at uric acid. And we haven’t had a chance to really talk about that. Maybe that can be a conversation, or number eight. Yeah. But what I learned in my research around uric acid, and the whole field of metabolic syndrome, is that metabolic syndrome is fed by uric acid.

The one we’re not making energy, when we’re not making ATP, we’re making uric acid. So uric acid is essentially the billowing black smoke coming out of the exhaust pipes of our mitochondria when we can’t make ATP. And the uric acid is a clear indication that the body and the mitochondria are in a state of disarray. That can’t make ATP. They can’t recycle the ADP back to ATP, or they can’t get a&p back to ATP. And it’s a crisis inside some set of mitochondria or an Oregon or what have you. So what I’ve done now is measuring uric acid or we’re looking at uric acid. And the lab range is wide enough to put a Mack truck through sideways. So we’re trying to really narrow it down saying, if if you were not within four to five, then you got a problem.


Dr. Joel Rosen: I am low, I mean, both on the high and low side.


Morley Robbins: Right, exactly, exactly. And so when does heart disease kick in? Well, according to the practitioners who focus on uric acid, it starts at 5.5. That’s a really critical threshold. I’ve got clients that are in the sevens. Now it’s making sense why they’re having problems. Well, if we put it into a cerebral plasmin context, we have a new ratio now. We have Cerebral plasmon to uric acid. Because of the Rouleau plasmon, think of it as a surrogate for bioavailable copper. Well, where’s copper, most important, it’s inside the mitochondria, at the complex for cytochrome c oxidase is what turns oxygen into water to release energy critical activity.

So I’m using su lo circular plasmid as a surrogate for complex and we’ve got uric acid now. Well, ideally, the ratio, let’s say we’re talking about men. So the ratio would be with a number for uric acid, remember the five. So we’ve got 30 divided by five is a six-to-one ratio. And as soon as I see where someone is, if the number is well below six, I know that their copper is compromised. And that’s affecting their ability to make energy.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Interesting. I’m always selfish to do these podcasts, not for my guests, but for me so that I can get to that little insider. Interesting. So so in order just to sort of take that away, so ideally, through plasm is somewhere in the area of 30. And a lot of the people we work with, and I’m sure you see this in the 16 1720s. And then if uric acid is above the five range, then that’s going to cause that coefficient to be a lot less than six if you’re dividing Zankel. Right. And that’s telling us that there’s a, the copper, the thriller plasm is, is your surrogate for the electron transport chain? Is that right?


Morley Robbins: Yep. So I’ve got a colleague who, in his late 50s, Headstart meds for hypertension. It was really, it was really defeating for him to have to do that. So we we ran the panel. Well, he’s had a lifelong issue with copper. He had Crohn’s disease when he was a teenager. He said all sorts of issues around copper that no one ever put into a copper context until we began working together. Right? But his Suru low plasma is 16. His uric acid was 7.3. Right? And he said, well, well my uric acid is just over the range ranges is up to 7.2.

Right? That’s a no, no, no, no. I said. So when you divide 16 by 7.3, it’s really small, it’s like 2.7, right? It’s not. You might oh my god, he’s, I’m, I’m less than half of what it should be. And I said That’s exactly right. Is it definitive? No. Is it directionally correct? Absolutely. It gives people something to hold their heads on. And they realize, Hey, I’ve got to get on top of this competition. Right?


Dr. Joel Rosen: So for women, 7.5 to one is the goal for them. Is that right?


Morley Robbins: Well, yeah. And that’s where we’re trying to refine is, is, we might even just say, we might just simplify and just say everyone should be at a five. I see. And then we have 30 divided by five, and we can interpolate it.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Is there an operation limit? Because I know you said with uric acid being low, would you have said, let’s say it was in the TOS, and you had 3015? What would 15 indicate?


Morley Robbins: That would tell you that the kidneys are not releasing the uric acid? The enzymes that release uric acid from the kidneys? Are copper-dependent, of course. And so what you’ll often see is low uric acid with folks who are dealing with neurodegeneration.


Dr. Joel Rosen: I say so it’s, it’s it. I’ve told people this, it’s still the same fundamental problem in the lack of bioavailable copper, it’s just depending on what system or organ system is being impacted by the lack of power.


Morley Robbins: Exactly. That’s exactly right. Yeah. And so I think I think the part is hard for some folks to grasp as, how could this one lowly little mineral, be so powerful and so important? And it’s like, I’m not sure. I think our Maker Mother Nature designed us in a very unique way. But boy, you talk about an Achilles heel. And if the Achilles heel goes south, the downstream impact is staggering.


Dr. Joel Rosen: So in wrapping up, so morally, if we were to have a utopian world, and we could do whatever we wanted, by rubbing the genie as many times as we could.


Morley Robbins: How would we fix this? The first thing I would do, I mean, we have complete sway over the world, right? Yeah. Glyphosate is gone. High fructose corn syrup is gone. Statins are gone. That’s where I’d start.


Dr. Joel Rosen: And the statins because they’re mitochondrial disruptors, is that what it is?


Morley Robbins: Yeah, absolutely. And we’re bucket we’re bucking three big containers of activity. I mean, right now, statins were the first trillion-dollar product on planet Earth. Right? It’s there’s a juggernaut behind it. Of course, we know that. But if we’re trying to make a seismic shift, that’s where I would start.


Dr. Joel Rosen: And also because of the fact that cholesterol is the oxygen sink, right? So if we don’t have the ability to sequester that, then we have oxidation of lipids and so forth.


Morley Robbins: Right. And the whole, the whole controversy was they never told us what the problem was. The problem was the lipids were getting rusty, why are they getting rusty? Because there was too much iron in our blood. Why was there too much iron? Oh, we didn’t have enough copper. And so rule of law, they forgot to tell us the most important part. So you were held hostage for 65 years around this, this blood chemistry, it goes back to the beginning of time. So it’s just so so information.


Dr. Joel Rosen: You know, it’s I think about you and your research. And last time we talked you were a bit deflated with what’s the purpose of this all. That sounds like you’re in a better place. Also, I would imagine with the researchers, I mean if I published stuff on the pm enzyme that was groundbreaking, and it doesn’t even hear a tree in the forest fall. I would want to you yell from the rooftops. Hey, this is important here. Do you know?


Morley Robbins: Well, I think that the issue is, if nobody knows about it, why would they pay attention to the research? Out of sight out of mind?


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, but there it’s being the fact that it’s being researched, though, tells you there’s Oh, inquisitive minds out there like yourself.


Morley Robbins: Totally agree. No, it’s just and it’s intensely researched. I mean, it’s not just like, well, I’m kind of bored today. I think I’ll take a look. This is like we’re talking about a Manhattan Project.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. So so to keep a prelude to part eight I would love to get you and I was hoping to talk about it today, but I don’t think we’re obviously gonna have time is the whole concept of ferroptosis Because that seems to be a big area of conversation when I’m doing the research with the nutrigenomics.

And, and Bob Miller and I really want your chocolate and his peanut butter to talk together because every now and then I hear the importance of bioavailable copper in that whole process. So anyways, maybe we can talk about that next time. As far as again, I mean, just let our listeners know if they’ve been under a rock for a while. Where would they find all your information?


Morley Robbins: Yeah, social media. There’s a magnesium advocacy group. There’s also an RCP page RCP for root cause protocol, on the website RCP 123 dot o RG oodles of information, there’s a resource section that is enough to choke a horse. I’ve got a book, cure your fatigue, got a product, recuperate. Now it’s being supported by a suite of products with companies called Formula IQ.

And you can just look up what they’ve got. And so we’re continuing to push back both the tide of lack of information. But, we’re also focusing on. what are some solutions that we can really rely on beyond the protocol itself. Let’s get to some specific components. And that’s really what we’re trying to bring forward.


Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s awesome. I appreciate your mission and your purpose. And I’m so grateful that I’ve joined a friendship with you and I really appreciate all the things that you do. I’ll leave the sign-off for another time To be continued. And I look forward to our next conversation morally.


Morley Robbins: Absolutely. Joel, thanks so much for your time. Thank you

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