Stress Recovery From Betrayal


Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, hello, everyone and welcome back to another edition of the less stressful life where we teach exhausted adults how to get their energy back quickly. And I’m really excited to join with our next guest, Dr. Debbie Silber because she is the founder of the post betrayal transformation Institute. And as a holistic psychologist, a healthy mindset and personal development expert, and the author of the number one best-selling book The unshakable woman four steps to rebuilding your body, mind, and life after a life crisis. And of course, her new book trust again overcoming betrayal and regaining health, confidence, and happiness. her recent Ph. D study on how we experienced betrayal made three groundbreaking breaking discoveries that change how long it takes to heal. In addition to that, being on Fox, CBS, the dr. oz show TEDx twice and more. She’s an award-winning speaker, coach, and author dedicated to helping people move past their betrayals, as well as any other blocks preventing them from their health work finances, relationships, confidence, and happiness they want. So Dr. Debbie, thank you so much for being here.


Dr. Debi Silber: Well, thanks so much for having me looking forward to our conversation.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s quite a bio. I’m very impressed with that with the books and the TEDx and being on news, and ultimately helping people that have been through some of the challenges that you have been through. So I always like to introduce our guests to get their background story, because a lot of our listeners are exhausted and burnt out, looking for hope, looking for guidance, looking for solutions, and looking for someone who has walked the walk and talk the talk. So Dr. Debbie, why don’t you share with us how your background and how you got into what you got into?


Dr. Debi Silber:  Yeah, and I and I can so relate to that person who is just absolutely exhausted, I’ve been there more than once. And I’ve been in a healthy mindset, personal development since 1991. I’ve worked with 1000s of people since then. And my business kept sort of morphing and changing as I did. And then there was trauma, and it was a horrible betrayal by my family. And you know how the universe works. So like, Well, you didn’t quite learn all the lessons you were meant to learn.

We’re giving you another opportunity. Well, that opportunity came and this time it was my husband, blindsided, devastated, you know, like anybody who’s been through it. So the first thing I did was I got him out of the house. And I thought, okay, what’s common between these two betrayals, because certainly, I did sign up to be the poster child for betrayal. And I realized, you know, I never even took my own needs seriously, I was never even on my own to-do list, I had four kids, six dogs, this thriving business, and I was sort of nowhere to be found. So one of the first things I did was sign up enroll in a Ph. D program. In transpersonal, psychology, the psychology of transformation and human potential. Because I was changing, I didn’t quite understand it, but I was like, You know what, that’s it, I’m doing something for me my turn, you know, and, and I was exhausted, depleted in way over my head, but I felt so just intuitively guided to just start doing this. And, and then I dove in. And while I was there, it was time to do a study. So I studied betrayal. What holds us back what helps us heal and what happens to us physically, mentally, and emotionally. When the people closest to us lie, cheat, and deceive. And that study led to three groundbreaking discoveries which changed my health, my family, my business, my life?


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, it’s an awesome story that we hear a lot of with our guests that have made it their purpose and mission and their badge of honor and their armor in terms of the war wounds and the scars that they’ve been through to wear them as that defines them. And I do want to get into those three discoveries, for sure. But I just want to get back into like, okay, you put yours like the shoemaker who has holes in your shoes for kids, the dog that you know, all the other things that you had to do to manage? But how do you go from putting yourself second or last, and being betrayed to looking at that as Okay, I’m going to use the winds to propel my sales, and I’m actually going to enroll in a Ph. D. program. So what was the transformation for you before the transformations and looking at the steps? Well, yeah, how did you decide to do that?


Dr. Debi Silber: That’s such a great question. I think because I looked at it and I and I felt like if I don’t do something good with this having no idea of what’s going to come of it. But if I don’t do something good with this, it’s like a bad game of hot potato. Do you know what I mean? Like, I would just feel like such a sucker. Like, I’m not here just to be heard and be taken advantage of and be duped. And it just, it felt the injustice was eating me up alive. And I just believed there’s got to be something I can do with this and I swore is that if I, if I heal from this, I’m taking Everybody with me. You know, that was really the mission and then and I just did and the what was so interesting about it was I had no idea what was going to show up, even like with my husband, you know, I said okay, it is the death and destruction of the old, having no concept of what’s going to show up.

But what I’ve learned. And what I’ve seen is, unless there is a complete and utter death and destruction of the old, you cannot rebirth, the new and rebuilding is always a choice whether we rebuild ourselves and move on, which is what I did with my family, it wasn’t an option to rebuild with them. Or if the situation lends itself if you’re willing, if you want to, you rebuild something entirely new with that person who hurt you. And actually, that’s what I did with my husband. Not long ago, we married each other again, as two totally different people, you know, our kids were a bridal party, new dress, new rings, the works. I never would have seen that coming either I unless I just was willing to let everything go and just see what would show up.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s amazing that you had that fortitude and insight. And obviously, you didn’t see what would bring. But you took the steps. And so just one more time. And when you’re in your introduction, you mentioned you know exactly what it’s like to be fatigued, and exhausted. Did that was that something when you went through the betrayal and the big sucker punch and all the things? Had you been dealing with fatigue as a result of that?


Dr. Debi Silber: Yeah, you know, like it like everybody, your buddy always tells you what’s going on that you just you may not be paying attention to and I remember even from years ago, the first time I mean I was completely burned out the same day, four kids, six dogs thriving business. And I, I should have been the picture of health, I was a holistic dietitian, I had been a trainer, Whole Health Coach, Functional Diagnostic nutritionist, this was before the Ph.D. And you name it, I had it, which didn’t make any bit of sense.


And I remember having surgery and at the time it was for arthritis, extreme arthritis from the outside, my feet look totally fine. Turns out I had worn away all the cartilage. And every doctor said, Oh, it’s from all your years of running. And I’m thinking, why is it that people can run into their 70s or, you know, whatever. And here I could, I couldn’t even walk didn’t make sense anyway. So I had the surgery. And while I healed, I studied to become at that time, a whole health coach a, you know, a health expert trained to teach your lifestyle creates health or wellness or illness and disease. And I learned that on some level, this stress I was under in the toxicity of the relationship, some of the relationships I had. And that that chronic overwhelming amount of stress was really at the root of it. So I changed everything, and everything healed. And then I wrote my first book on that I was like, I just discovered the secret to everything. And that was definitely the beginning of a new path. I’ll never forget the founder of that whole health coaching program said, you know, Debbie, when you did that because the whole thing happened right in front of her as I was going through this program, she said, you trade I watched you trade an anchor for a pair of waves. It’s amazing what that stress does, and how we just keep slogging through without changing anything. And we think we’re, you know, we’re doing the best we can and we are, but we don’t realize how desperately the body would love to cooperate. We have but we need to make some changes.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and it’s not like it’s cracking the atom in terms of what we need to do in the sense that there’s a lot of elephants in the room in terms of taking stock of what are these things that I’m experiencing. And we work with very sophisticated clients that are on the internet, they’re searching for answers or doctors aren’t giving them and a lot of the time they’re not looking at what’s in front of them. And what I want to talk about now is your discovery. So you went got the Ph. D program which is talking to you can just hear the drive to succeed and that’s inherent which is what you use as As your weapons to move forward, but what are what were the discoveries? What were the three discoveries that you had?


Dr. Debi Silber: Yeah. And you know what it was it was seriously the drive to get me out of the pain and the mess I was in. That’s what it was. And just to desperately understand, you know why people do these things and how the mind works. So yeah, the first one was, you know, originally, I was studying something called post-traumatic growth, the up kind of upside of trauma how, regardless of the trauma no matter what it is, how it leaves you with a new awareness, perspective, an insight that you didn’t have. But I had been through the death of a loved one, I had been through disease, I had peritonitis, I was in ICU for 11 days, like I know, stuff like that. But this felt so different. I didn’t want to assume so I said to my study participants, and I said, if you’ve been through other traumas, this betrayal fell different for you. Hands down unanimously, they said, Oh, my gosh, it’s so different. And it’s so different. Because let’s take you to know, losing someone you love like I lost my mom. you grieve, you’re sad, you mourn the loss, life will never be the same. But you don’t necessarily take it personally. The transpersonal It feels so because it’s so intentional, feels so intentional.


We take it so personally. So the entire self has to be rebuilt, rejection, abandonment, confidence, belonging, worthiness, trust, these are huge, they all get shattered, they all have to be rebuilt. So I kind of looked at it, like, you know, healing from betrayal is its own separate animal over here, and it needs its own name for complete healing. So now it’s called post betrayal transformation. That was the first discovery. So the second one was, you know, while we stay stuck, for years, decades, a lifetime and many of us do, if we’re going to heal, we will fully heal, we’re going to go through five stages. And what’s even more exciting about that now is we know what happens at every one of those stages physically, mentally, and emotionally. And we know what it takes to move from one stage to the next, which means healing from betrayal is now predictable. And I’m happy to go through the five stages if you want. The third discovery. This blew my mind too. There’s a collection of symptoms, physical, mental, and emotional, so common to the trail. It’s now known as post betrayal syndrome. And we’ve had over 10,000 people in the last year and a half, take the quiz on our site to see to what extent they’re still struggling every age, just about every country is represented. And you know how we’ve heard Time heals all wounds. I have the proof that’s not true. Not when it comes to betrayal. There’s a question that I have on the quiz. And it says, Is there anything else you’d like to share? And besides reading about the physical, the mental, the emotional symptoms, people write things like my betrayal happened 40 years ago, and I can still feel the hate. My betrayal happened 30 years ago, I’m unwilling to trust again, my betrayal had been eight years ago feeling like it happened yesterday. So we know that when it comes to betrayal, we only heal when we face it, feel it, heal it. And it’s painful. So many of us don’t I even pulled some stats, I mean, I’m happy to share with you some of the most common symptoms and go through the five stages. Do you tell me? Whatever.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that someone that’s listening to this that’s exhausted and burnt out and has experienced betrayal, may not be looking at that elephant in the room. I mean, they obviously know that that’s something that is is responsible, in part or whole for their fatigue and exhaustion. But it’s like, Okay, let’s do a saliva test. Let’s do a GI map. And let’s do this. And let’s do that. And, and I’ll just get over with time, as you mentioned, or I’ll see therapists that don’t necessarily understand the five healing phases, or I’ll be put on antidepressants or Anti-Medica, anti anxieties. So Debbie, let’s dive in and go over those five stages.


Dr. Debi Silber: Yeah, absolutely. And here’s the thing there, when I go through the five stages, you know, it’s so common to think that when someone has just recently been betrayed, that’s when they realize their symptoms are because of a betrayal. And I have to tell you, what I’m seeing more and more, you will find there’s when I get to stage three, and I’m going to dive into that one a little bit deeper. That’s the stage people tend to get stuck in. And they can be in that stage for decades. So when you say that weight issue, that health issue, that fatigue issue is due to a betrayal, they’ll say, Oh my gosh, what are you talking about that happened years ago, and I’m going to show you how it doesn’t matter if it happened years ago. That’s why they’re stuck now. So the first stage is like setup stages. I just saw this with everybody, me included.


Dr. Debi Silber:  If you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. What I saw with everybody was this real heavy lien on the physical and the mental and kind of neglecting the emotional and the spirit. So what does that look like? Looks like we’re really good at thinking and doing, and not really prioritizing the feeling in me. But it’s in the feeling and being. That’s where intuition lies. And we turn that down. Because we’re so busy, we just need to get stuff done. Now, that’s not to say that if you’re busy, it’s a set up for betrayal. It’s just what I typically saw that was the profile. Stage two is by far hands down the scariest stage shock. This is the breakdown of the body, the mind the worldview, this is d day discovery day, you’re you’ve ignited the stress response. And now you’re headed for every single stress-related symptom, illness condition, disease, your mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm, you cannot wrap your mind around the information you just learned.


And your worldview is shattered. That’s your mental model. These are the roles this person saved, don’t go there. This is how it works, right? And in a moment, everything you’ve known to be and believed in, and known to be real and true, is no longer. True. It’s terrifying. This is truly where the bottom bottoms out in you. But if think about it, if you were walking down the street and the bottom suddenly bottomed out, what would you do, you would grab hold of anything and everything you could to stay safe and stay alive? That’s stage three, survival instincts emerge. It’s the most practical stage. If you can’t help me get out of my way, how can I survive this experience? Who can I trust? What do I do? Where do I go? But here’s the trap. Once we figured that out, we’re like, Okay, I got this. And because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma of where we were, we think this is good. We haven’t even gotten to stages four or five. But here’s what happens. Now we’re in this stage. And we slowly start planting roots here, because now we start getting our story, or the small self benefits, we get our story, we get to be right, feels good to be right, we get someone to blame, we get a target for anger, we get sympathy from everybody we tell our story to we don’t have to do the hard work of learning to trust again, should I trust you to I trust you and forget I will trust anybody. And so now we’re planning some deep roots here, the longer we stay here, now our mind starts doing things like maybe you’re not all that.


Maybe you deserved it. Maybe you know, you’re not as great as you think. Maybe whatever. Right, so now we’re planting deeper roots. Now, like energy attracts. So if this is how we feel, now we start calling situations and circumstances and people towards us that confirm this is where we belong. It gets worse, I’ll get you out of your door. But it gets worse. Because we’re not happy here. Here’s where we start using things like food, drugs, alcohol, work, TV, keeping busy reckless behavior, we’re not happy with our body, with our health, with our energy, with our work with our lifestyle, with our relationships with our life, but we don’t know what to do. So we start using these things. And when we start that, now we’re in this like, perpetual holding pattern. And these habits are formed. And we do this for years. So here’s exactly why when someone says, No, I didn’t my betrayal happened years ago. It’s not from that. But it is. Because once we’re it stuck like this, and this becomes our identity. And these are the habits, we’re planting some firm roots right in this place. So that’s why stage three is the hardest one to leave.

Having said that, though, if we’re willing to grieve, mourn the loss of a couple of different things, we can move to stage four, stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal, here’s where you upset, I cannot undo my betrayal. But I can control how profoundly I will let this Take me down. Right. And I always liken this to if you’ve ever moved to a new house, office, condo, apartment, whatever your stuff’s not there, it’s not quite cozy yet. But it’s going to be okay. When you’re in this stage, you’re turning your stress response down a little bit. You know, you’re not you’re not your body’s not healing just yet, but you’re not causing the massive damage you were causing. And stage two and stage three, your mind starts changing a little bit, you’re creating some new boundaries based on what you know, like where you are now. And what’s so interesting about this stage, you know, think about it if you are moving, you don’t necessarily take everything with you, but you don’t take the stuff that doesn’t represent the version of you who you want to be in that new space.


And here’s where I stopped Big changes in friendships if your friends weren’t there for you if it was a one-sided friendship, if your friends are indulging in low energy, gossip, whatever, you don’t have that headboard anymore, you’ve outgrown them. So people say to me all the time, you know, I’ve been friends with these people 2030 years, is it meat? Yes, it is, you’re undergoing a transformation. So it’s different. You’re different right now. Anyway, we settle into this stage for we’re feeling good. Here, we’re making it comfortable making it our own, we can move into the fifth most beautiful stage, and this is healing rebirth and a new worldview. The body starts to heal, you didn’t have the bandwidth for eating well, exercising self-love, self-care, you are surviving. Now you do making new rules, making new boundaries, and have a new worldview. Based on the road you just traveled and the four legs of the table. Remember, in the beginning, we were only focused on the physical and mental, were solidly grounded. Because now we’re focused on the emotional and the spiritual to those are the five stages.


Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome, awesome information. And I guess I’m not sorry, you had to go through that. Because now you’re able to help so many other people and also yourself. And a couple of questions that I have, though, in my head, I have a lot. But willingness is you mentioned the word willingness. So for women and men that have been betrayed, there may be a lack of willingness, in terms of I love the word rootedness. And I’m a bit confused that if their identity has been that betrayer is betrayed, the betrayed, and are they ago? They are right in, you know, stage three, or that’s one of the questions. And then the other question, is it linear? Do they have to go from one to the next? Or do they jump around? And then first, but before that, Debbie, is how do you the person has to go ask for help. And they have to identify that’s a problem. But they may not be willing to do that. And but the betrayal is the elephant in the room. So what are the tools to help someone who may not be willing yet to give up that? That security of their new identity? And then that makes sense? Do those questions make sense to you?

Dr. Debi Silber: Yes, me a few. And I’m just trying to figure out which one to answer first.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Sorry, my mind.


Dr. Debi Silber: Yeah, yeah. So as far as the willingness that is, that is the biggest needle mover, I mean it with it because here’s the thing, they have every right to hang on to their story, and I get it, it’s powerful. But it’s, it’s, the more resistant they are, the less likely they’ll heal. And actually, there were even three groups in the study who did not heal. And one of them was the group who just refused to accept their betrayal. They didn’t heal, you know, I always use I’m going to give you an analogy, this is going to help everybody so much because you will see how it’s you do you have every right to hang on to it, but how it doesn’t serve. So using this analogy of a house, the right picture of a house here’s the difference between resilience and transformation. trauma, transformation, resilience is restoring, bringing back you need that for your everyday transformation is a whole different thing.


So let’s say you have a house and the house needs a new boiler, right? You get a boiler, that would be resilience, or if it needs a roof, a new roof that would be resilient, you’re bringing it back, you’re restoring here’s trauma and transformation. A tornado comes by and levels, your house. boilers not going to fix it and the new roofs not going to fix it. But here’s the thing, you have every right to stand there at the lot where your house wants to it and say, This is the most horrible thing that has ever happened. And you’d be right. And you can call everybody you know over and say, take a look at this. Isn’t this the worst thing you’ve ever seen? And they all agree it’s really true. You don’t have to do anything. You really do have the right to mourn your house. The remainder of your days. However, if you choose to rebuild your house, you don’t have to, but if you choose to, why would you build the same one? Like, why not make it the most beautiful house? Why not give it everything the old house didn’t have? That’s the beauty of you know, if I had to say the gift in betrayal, that’s it. It levels everything. So yes, you can stay there with your victim story. And it’s a powerful one. Listen, I had the most important people in my life all betray me. But the story you get when you do something with it is so much better. It’s just so much better. I don’t even know if I answered your question.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Oh, it’s awesome. It’s awesome. It’s great it’s a great answer. A lot of tools that come out of that I tell and teach the clients and community that I work with is you’re fully justified in feeling the way that you are, but it certainly isn’t serving you. And I love the new concept of if you’re going to be rebuilding it, why not think outside the box and give yourself permission to build it in your most authentic self? So those are really awesome questions or answers. The other thing I have is I don’t know if people ask you this, but with your husband as or the family as the betrayer? Do, do they go through awareness or transformation as well? What do they do?


Dr. Debi Silber: it all depends. Sometimes it takes the complete shock of realizing what they’ve done to wake them up and have them change. And then when that’s the case, you have something to work with. Other times they do not, you know, I teach something that’s called the window of willingness. And I’ll share real quickly if you like, this is how you know, you, you have potential if you choose to work with that person, right? So imagine a window that’s as wide open as can be, right? This would be the best-case scenario, level one. And this means and with a level one, this means the person is they apologize, there’s so much remorse, empathy, restitution, and it would sound something like this. I am so sorry. For what I did. I can’t imagine how, how painful This must be for you, what can I possibly do to make it up to you? Now, of course, with betrayal, it’s gonna take a lot more than that. But you’re off to a good start, this person is completely owning it, right? You can feel the window close with level two.


And you know, it’s coming when you hear the word because and it sounds something like this. Well, I did it because buhbuh buhbuh I said it because now you still have something to work with here. But it doesn’t feel nearly as good as total and complete ownership without anything other than that, right? Feel the window closing even more with this level three, you know, it’s coming when you hear the word you and this involves blame. And it sounds like this, why did it because you blah, blah, blah. I said it because you did is like nowhere I call this the two-sided slap here you get betrayed and then you get blamed for it. Like what is that? This is crazy-making. And very often, you have nothing to work with here, very often level three, that stage level three is coupled with stage four windows sealed shut. And this is taking zero responsibility. So there’s the Personally, I don’t know what you’re talking about. You’re crazy. So you get blamed, and then you know, and then they don’t even own it. So when you’re dealing with a level three, level four, this is the person talk about someone who’s exhausted, you’re banging your head against the wall, you’re trying to prove you like walking around with a notebook like no, no, you said this, look, I have the proof. You are wasting your time. when that’s the case, when you’re looking at a level three, level four, like that was my family. You know, you heal yourself and move on. When you’re dealing with that level one, level two, you have a choice, but at least there’s something to work with there.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, those are those are awesome. As far as what about someone who, and I don’t mean this in any terrible way, but is hypersensitive to be a trail. So if they had a tough childhood, I had a tough childhood. My parents were divorced. My mother was an alcoholic, and only now and like through full disclosure through therapy, am I realizing how much that has impacted me? And but if there’s not an obvious line in the sand, in terms of an affair or other things that have happened, is there a possibility that that person is hypersensitive to betrayal? And do they benefit through going through those awareness stages and so forth?


Dr. Debi Silber: 100% you know, whenever, because think about it, when you can just even in the background that you’re you’re talking about there’s there could be rejection and abandonment and all of those issues that need to be cleaned up. And he’ll trust, you know, I’m sure trust was shattered too. So So all of that needs to be addressed and dealt with and when it’s not, we keep repeating these patterns. Because first of all, you keep choosing people that are not in your best interest because it feels so familiar,

not because it’s good because it feels so familiar, right? Or you close yourself off completely because you’re like, No, no, there’s just way too much pain, if I’m vulnerable and, and open up my heart, right. So all of that has to be looked at and we see so often. Someone even let’s say the betrayer they could be coming from a background of lots of trauma themselves. Does it justify anything make it right? No, no, everybody’s got to take responsibility for their own, you know, behaviors and if someone realizes they’re dealing with the trauma of some level, you know, clean that stuff up. Instead of like, you know, my husband, it was devastating to my entire family. So yes, he learned the most profound lessons. And now he’s, he’s an amazing human being, you know, but he learned a lot at our expense. And is it a powerful way to learn?


But you know what I have, I mean, see what the outcome of it now and how many people this lesson is helping. I look at it like it’s good. But when people are hurting other people because they haven’t gone into the depths of what needs their own cleanup. That’s rough. It’s rough on everybody that that loves them.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I’m just looking at my notes, because there are so many things I want to ask you. And I’m aware of our time, but we still have some time to go through some more answers. So one of the questions I wanted to ask you was, how do we know if we haven’t healed from betrayal?


Dr. Debi Silber: Yeah, you know, it’s interesting, I can spot it. So clearly, we see it in work and health and relationships, Matt can even talk about some of the symptoms of post betrayal syndrome. But here’s a like a classic, what we can see what we would see, just like I mentioned, we have seen in relationships in two ways. When someone has a repeat betrayal like the faces change, you know, it’s like, you go from friend to friend to friend, it’s the same thing. Boss, the boss, the boss, same thing, partner, partner, partner, it’s the same thing. And people say to me, Debbie, is it me? Yes, it is. You have yet to learn that profound lesson. That betrayal was there to teach that you need boundaries in place that you are lovable, worthy, deserving, whatever the lesson is for you, you keep getting more opportunities to learn that and until and unless you do, you will keep repeating it.

That’s an unhealed betrayal. So a repeat betrayal is an unhealed betrayal. And then on the other side of that is that person who’s not been there, done that not doing that again, and people look at it as No, no, it’s just my choice. This is coming from a place of strength. No, it’s not. It’s coming from a place of fear. You are, your heart was so hurt, that you’re like I am keeping everybody at bay because I cannot go through that again. But when you heal it, that’s when you know, you’re working with a whole different thing. That’s an unhealed betrayal. We see it in health, where people go to the most well-meaning amazing health experts, doctors, coaches, healers, therapists, to manage a stress-related symptom illness condition disease, and at the root of it is that unhealed betrayal. And then we see it at work to where someone, let’s say they, they want that raise or promotion, they deserve it. Right. But they don’t have the confidence to ask because their confidence was shattered. So they don’t, and they’re bitter and resentful instead, or they want to be a team player, right? Or collaborate on a project. But the person they trusted, the most proved untrustworthy. So how can they trust their boss or coworker or JV partner or whatever? So we see it in every aspect of life, this stuff does not go away unless we address it.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, absolutely. And what I love about it is that as you put a systematic approach to, to healing, and, and betrayal, I know that I’ve heard the saying before too, you know, not forgiving someone is like drinking medicine or something poison, like poison and expecting someone else to get sick. But it’s easier said than done. And also, you know, you hear the difference, like with grace and forgiveness. How do I go about doing that? So that’s, that’s what you’ve put together in a systematic approach back to people that are exhausted and fatigue. I’d like to know anecdotally, or even studies wise, meaning through your, through your experience, how have these people transformed in terms of their stress response, their energy, and even Far, far-reaching? Maybe not connected? outcomes, like success or other things? What have you seen Debbie, and going through that?


Dr. Debi Silber: When I see someone in that stage four and stage five, they are unrecognizable. There’s a strength there’s a level of energy and confidence. All of it has been earned. earned. I mean, I look at betrayal as one of the most painful human experiences. Because these were the very people who say, hey, when everybody else is making you crazy or not doing right by you, you’re safe with me. Here’s your sense of safety and security, I got you. And when that’s the very person who shatters it’s terrifying. So when we rebuild after that, it’s a version of you that would blow your mind. And that’s why the body takes such a hit with betrayal. This is a complete and total shock to the body in mind. So It’s virtually impossible to not have physical, mental-emotional symptoms. But the beauty is we can heal from all of it. I’m living proof. The people in our community are living proof. You just need to be willing. And that that is I’m not kidding more than half of it. But you can’t just address it from let’s say, a psychological level like you see a therapist, that could be wonderful. That’s, that just talks therapy, you have to get to the other aspects that have been hard hit with this. And what I see too is if that therapist isn’t highly skilled in betrayal, it does more harm than good. So so many factors go into if you truly want to heal, you need the right protocol, you cannot just address this. Psychologically, it hits way too many other areas.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, absolutely. always talk about customization, and making sure that you’re customizing the recovery strategy around what’s going on personally, and it’s not a cookie-cutter fits all type of solution, and especially with psychology and betrayal, and how it impacts you on the energy fatigue level. Awesome information. Thank you so much for sharing this. I think anyone who’s listening to this, who’ve experienced that will have some aha hours. And you mentioned a quiz. So can you tell us a little bit about what the quiz is? And what they’ll learn from taking it? And where do they take it?

Dr. Debi Silber: Sure. So the quiz is, it’s to see to what extent they’re struggling with post betrayal syndrome. And I know we’ve been talking about, you know, fatigue, and things like that, just Just so you know, every couple of months, I pull some stats just to see what’s going on with everybody. So out of 10,000 people, so imagine 10,000 people have taken that out of 10,000 people, these are just the physical ones. 71% have low energy 68% have sleep issues, 63%, extreme fatigue, 47% weight changes, and 45% digestive issues. It’s so common, you know, anything, constipation, diarrhea, IBS, Crohn’s, you name it and think about it, it’s and that’s, you know, that’s just physical, I’ll read you some more. So mental 78% are overwhelmed. 68%, orange shock, and 62%, unable to concentrate and some emotional issues. 88% extreme sadness, 83% anger. I mean, just just take any of these combinations and mix them. And here you are supposed to go to work and raise your family, you could see why we’d be so exhausted. But I’ll tell you, I wrote I wrote the book trust again, because of this. 84% have an inability to trust 67% of prisoners preventing themselves from forming deep relationships because they’re afraid of being hurt. 82% find it hard to move forward and 90% want to move forward, but they don’t know-how. So a great place to start is by taking that quiz to see to what extent they’re struggling.


Dr. Joel Rosen: So where do they take that.


Dr. Debi Silber: just go to that PVT as opposed to betrayal transformation that PBT forward slash quiz.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, awesome. So so that quiz is somewhat surprised when clients or prospective clients or even people that send me DMS, say to me that that’s something that they don’t want to, it’s not a big deal, or it’s in the past or, and it’s a big part of almost, if not the whole part of why their energy levels for the clientele that I work with, are not getting better. And it saddens me for sure. Because I want them to heal. And I know it’s a huge part of it. But that willingness is like you said is the biggest needle mover. And I love the idea that you mentioned that you went from an anchor to wings and soared what I

Dr. Debi Silber:
was gonna say and that’s why, you know, we have a certification program. And so many health experts are becoming certified in the five stages. Because exactly what you said, the most amazing health expert is trying to is doing stress tests and everything else. But when they understand you know what stage that person is in just based on a slight little conversation. Now they know oh, this person is really in stage two, this person is stuck in stage three. So they have this additional arsenal of tools in their tool belt to help them move past it. So while they’re doing the testing, while they’re giving the amazing protocols they have now they know oh, what’s behind it is this betrayal they want complete and total healing gets to the root.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so the post betrayal transformation Institute is geared to both the betrayed and the professional or


Dr. Debi Silber: Yeah, one or the other. We have it Yeah. It’s the only membership community that is a full service helping someone heal physically, mentally, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually. But we also have a certification program in place where you know, it is we walk people through the five stages. So they clean up their own stuff, because that’s who makes the best, the best coaches and practitioners, and then we run them through the certification program. And then they have the option to either work on their own just in their own practices or within our community. And when they work within our community, they teach classes, you know, I pay them to see our members. So so it’s just, you know, and they get to specialize in their own topic, too. So I just want all my members to feel so well served, so they love it because all these different coaches and practitioners are teaching just amazing stuff.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s such a gift. I know, when I’ve worked with clients that then go on to learn and be able to help other people. Now you’ve just magnified your mission and mesh message through that person. So that’s, that’s awesome. I find that some of the missing links though, is I’m really big into nutrigenomics. So I find like, why is their depression, anxiety, compulsions, addictions, even though there has been that epigenetic perfect storm of a betrayal, there may be certain challenges genetically with clearing, making, forming, communicating chemical messengers. And those are some of the low sorts of the little, I say, waters not gonna boil at 99.3% or degrees Fahrenheit, it needs that extra little bit. So awesome information, Debbie, I really appreciate it. What I like to ask my guests in closing is and it’s really appropriate for you, knowing what you know, now. And what would the wise Sage Debbie tell the naive or ignorant or just unaware, Debbie? And it’s kind of a tough question. Because you in a sense, you had to go through that to get to where you got to otherwise you wouldn’t have been on your radar. And it may not you wouldn’t all these other people would not have benefited as we talked about. But with that being said, What would you have told the naive, bright-eyed, and bushy-tailed Debbie, what you know now to propel your health and energy levels.


Dr. Debi Silber: Yeah, you know, one of the things that I did was I was so ashamed and and and that’s so typical with betrayal away and even doing anything, right. And here I am ashamed and worried and just being embarrassed and filled with just fear and worried about judgment and all of these things. And, and I didn’t reach out for support. I didn’t tell my friends for like the first year. I mean, that’s why we created a community to give people as much support as possible. But I really my health dived during that time. And also a very private person. So I didn’t want to share this. I mean, you know, it was uncomfortable. But seeing now the benefit. If I would have that wise version of me speaking to that other version of me, I’d say you should have shared sooner, but glad to share now.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, yeah, I have that same issue too. And it’s funny when you have I don’t know if it’s introverted, but just not sharing. And yet, you’re the light that has been shine really bright to help other people that have that challenge as well. So kudos to you for everything that you do. And thank you so much for being here. And then just one last time, where do they go to take the quiz?


Dr. Debi Silber: Oh, thank you so much that PVT as in post betrayal transformation that PBT forward slash quiz.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Debbie. What I like to do is keep the window or door or ceiling open for us to be able to touch base maybe in a year or two to figure out what discoveries you had, that we don’t have now because we’re always growing and we’re always learning and looking for that next little piece of information that can help other people but until then, I wish you continued success and all that you do.

Dr. Debi Silber: Oh YouTube. Thank you so much.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Thank you


To check out Dr. Deb and take her quiz click here

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