New Research: Why Iron deficiency Anemia is a Fallacy and needs to be Abolished?

Dr. Joel Rosen: So here we are for another edition of the truth about your health with my distinguished and honorable guests, Morley, and Morley Robbins. And we are here to discuss this is actually part four, I believe, or part


Morley Robbins: Might be part 5.


Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. So I know Ari Witten said part 17 or part 16. But we’re on our way there. So I’m excited to have you in my office. It’s a pleasure. So So Morley, I took a lot of notes after our last interview, and we were talking about the recycling of iron. And it’s fascinating how the body needs only 25 milligrams of iron, of which 24 are what we already have in our body. Exactly. And when it doesn’t, you have a negative regulator, and a positive regulator, copper being the positive regulator, and iron being the negative regulator.

And we got into talking about how different environmental factors will make it difficult to negatively regulate energy production. And so can you get into that a little bit because you lost me a little bit, and I listened to it again. And I wanted a little bit more clarification because it wasn’t only vitamin D. There was also high fructose corn syrup that you did on your pot in your masterclass. So maybe we could talk about what happens when the body isn’t able to recycle iron effectively, and how, what the consequences of those are okay?


Morley Robbins: Sure. It’s a really, I think it’s a really foundational concept, understands and appreciates you want to kind of dig a little deeper. Because the whole notion of recycling is foreign to a lot of people like our body recycles. And it seems, as I got into the research, it seems that every recycling program requires copper. And so the cells have a stomach, called the lysosome.

And that’s where the recycling takes place. And one of our good friends who’s a radiologist advised is said that the lysosome runs on high-energy peroxides. If you’ve got high-energy peroxide, you may have copper nearby to help manage that and regulate that. And there are not a lot of articles that get into that. But one in particular, that’s very, very good at it, is by Kim and Gonzalez from 2021. It’s a very, it’s pretty high brow.

But it’s but I think even the average layman can follow it. Because it really gets into how sophisticated the lysosome is, and how copper-dependent it is as well. And why don’t we know this, right? But the nuance is that every second of every day, every second, we’re gonna make two and a half million red blood cells. Well, the numbers get outrageously big. When you start getting break it down to hemoglobin. And then he, we’re talking, we’re talking really big numbers every second, we’ve got to be able to make that. And where’s that? Where’s that taking place? It’s in the bone marrow. And the bone marrow is principally the pelvic region and the long bones. That’s where most of the bone marrow is.

And it’s basically fat. But I think the important thing for folks to understand is that when we do a blood test, to find out what’s going on, especially since 70% of the iron in the body is in hemoglobin. That’s it. I call it the bucket of iron. It’s a huge vessel of iron. That’s evil. Another 10% is supposed to be in the storage protein ferritin. And that is supposed to be inside the cells that are supposed to be in the blood. When it’s in the blood, it means it’s outside the cell. That’s not good. But I know we’re going to come back to that. But then there’s a third and so the ferritin is like a teacup. So we got a bucket, we got a teacup, and then we have what’s called Syrah Meyer. And that’s a thimble. So we have 70% 10% 1/10 of 1% of the iron in the serum, the serum.

And it’s a really important 1/10 of 1%. Because it’s telling us how efficient the recycling system is. And so there’s a huge amount of iron in the blood. When we do a blood test, only 1% of copper is in the blood. 46% is in the bone marrow. So if you really want to measure someone’s true copper status, you got to do a bone marrow biopsy. That’s fun. Yeah, you first Yeah. No, no one ever thinks about that, right? And if you really want to know what someone’s iron status really is, either do a needle biopsy of a liver or do a Tesla to MRI. Right? They’re very accurate.

But that’s the Tesla three, not the Tesla 4567, Tesla for some reason has the best affinity for measuring iron status, like, go faded, right? So that the issue is the recycling system is critical for turning over the iron. And where’s this? You know, so you’ve got, you’ve got the situation where iron is being stored in ferritin. But it’s got to be released, it’s got to get out. And it turns out that there are two different types of therapy, which have what’s called a heavy chain, and a light chain. It’s actually a spectrum. And the way I characterize it now is to think of the light chain as vanilla. Think of heavy chains as chocolate. Okay, okay.

Right? If I notice any chocolate noses, coppery chocolate, right, that’s much of vanilla. But, the thing is, the heavy chain means it has what’s called the Ferro oxidase enzyme function. And so heavy chain is like an ATM machine, you can put money in, you could take money out of my head, and what the fair for each and every chain does, you can put it in, you can take it out.

And there’s no exhaust, there’s no status, there’s no, but on the light chain side, though, the action is stimulated by hydrogen peroxide. And hydrogen peroxide will oxidize iron to get it into the storage protein. But there’s always a cost, it’s gonna give off exhaust, right? And so that’s not a good thing. And in order to get it out of the ferritin, your chi, uric acid. uric acid is observed, we’re gonna talk about it. But uric acid is like, mind-blowing metabolite, that’s getting a lot of notoriety now between Richard Johnson and David Perlmutter, and a number of other authors. But it’s like, it’s behind all the chronic disease because it’s getting too high.

But we need it. It’s a really essential part. It’s all about the bill shaker, the Goldilocks, not too high, not too low, just right. And so the ferritin needs to be broken down. And it needs to be broken down in the lysosome. And it needs to have these high-energy peroxides to do it. And if they can’t crank it, what happens is the iron gets dumped into the tissue. And there was a 10 amino acid cleavage of the ferritin protein. And it gets released gets secreted into the bloodstream. So it shows up in the bloodstream. And doctors have been trained to believe that what’s in the ferritin in the blood is representative of ferritin in the cell. I wouldn’t trust that marker. Right.

And it’s not just one author I’ve probably found seven authors who clearly say, ferret Veriton is not a good indicator of iron status. It’s just it’s too volatile as a marker. But the thing is, the important thing to understand is that there is a recycling program. And that it depends on energy and these peroxides to do that. And there are all sorts of chaperones that also transport proteins involved in that. None of which I don’t think it’s taught in any kind of doctorate school. They all teach a doctor school seems to be a dipstick. Right, too high, too low, whatever. But, it’s a much more nuanced process to understand what’s happening to iron in the body. And I think a lot of people

don’t realize the sophistication of their bodies. And they don’t realize that iron, it’s a critical nutrient. We know we can’t live without it, right? But iron is the foot soldier, and copper is the general. So let’s picture the Battle of the Bulge. Without patent. It’s a very different story when he’s not there. It would, would have been a very different ending to the war if you hadn’t been there. But the thing is, as I’m coming to understand it, day by day, week, by week, every facet of iron metabolism depends on copper.

I mean, it’s just the production of heme, the production of hemoglobin, the production of red blood cells, and the recycling of the ferritin protein. It’s like, oh, my gosh, it’s so copper-dependent. And this has been in the literature, going back to the 30s. ActuItrted with the 20s, but a lot of literature in the 30s and 40s. But as recently as the 20 teens, I mean, there are some really sophisticated articles out there from 2016 2018 2019 2021. That came to Gonzalez. And it’s like, it’s not, it’s not hidden. It’s just not been.


Dr. Joel Rosen: You know, just interject there. I’ve seen you be interviewed by different guests, and you spill out research that they’re not aware of. And I almost feel like in a paradoxical way, it’s not looked at as legit research, if it’s older research, right? But it shouldn’t be the opposite.

It should be thought of the older it is when we didn’t have all this technology or the incentives to publish certain things, certain ways that they were doing it with the limited technology, if anything, that research is much more sound and that much is like you always say is more endearing? And is you find, I guess, just as a side question, do you find when you present your research to people that interview you, they kind of show it off as Oh, that was done in the 20s or 30s?


Morley Robbins: They may not say it, but Right. Absolutely believe that. Yeah. And that’s it’s not that. They’re not bad people. It’s a societal meme, right? Well, it’s got to be three seconds old to be valid. Right, right. And if it’s are you kidding, it’s 100 years old, right? How can I possibly trust that? Right? Well, let’s talk about Newton. was Newton wrong, right?


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. It goes, it goes to show like I mean, by the time the ivory towers hits the street, it’s already old news, right? And I think that you need that time for it to actually get implemented, versus the stuff that gets published today. You don’t have the Morley Robbins giving it to you in your face right away. Here it is. And you’re usually going to hear about that another 20 years from now.


Morley Robbins: Exactly. And I think what’s important for people to appreciate is there’s a level of simplicity, but there’s a level of sophistication to how our body works to be the recycling system for iron the formulators, reticular, endothelial system.


Dr. Joel Rosen: I like to know what yeah, why did they come up with.


Morley Robbins: That? Why did they come up with that, but basically means recycling? And it’s run by copper. It’s totally run by copper. And what’s important is the three principal organs that are involved in it are the liver, the spleen, and the bone marrow.

So that’s what’s happening in the liver, there’s a lot of storage of iron in the liver. That’s really it’s a good thing, but that’s what’s happened. The spleen is where the old red blood cells are being turned over, that they, they go there, they get broken down and the iron is gonna get released. It’s also gonna get released in the liver because there’s some breakdown in the liver as well.

But, Oregon, I guess, I call it an organ. I don’t know what else to call it. But then the substance in our body that has the strongest attraction for iron is the bone marrow. If I had a choice between the liver and spleen Boehner always got involved.


Dr. Joel Rosen: is that because that’s, that’s where the 100 concentration of copper is?


Morley Robbins: Concentration copper and it knows it’s going to be turned back into here. You hemoglobin in red blood cells.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? You know, what’s amazing to me is is that you find with people that are searching for the root cause protocol, and you see, well, you have to detox the liver, or you have to get rid of mold, or you have to get rid of Epstein Barr, or you have to do this cleanse or that cleanse. But no one’s talking about what you just mentioned, in terms of you what I love about it as you approach it from an energy standpoint.

And what is more important is it than your body making red blood cells to be able to deliver oxygen to be able to make ATP? And I think that’s where the buck start stops, like, okay, maybe you have an iron that’s trapped in your integral sites, and it’s feeding parasites, and at some point, you’re gonna have to address this. But if you’re going to have a Game of War, and you want to figure out which is the more superior card, if you will, it’s the necessity to be able to respire, it’s the necessity to be able to breathe at the cellular level.


Morley Robbins: Absolutely true. And there’s a very famous physiologist. He was actually a biologist, I think he was drawn to physiology at a professional University, in Wisconsin, back in the 20s. And 30s. He ended up it was so cool. His name was Conrad LVM. He was Dutch, originally from the Netherlands, I suppose. But he started out as a farm boy, outside of Wisconsin, outside of Madison, and he wanted to go to the university.

And he enrolled a got an undergrad in biology, that he got a master’s doctorate, and then became in charge of the biochemistry department, then he became the president of the university skies system. It’s a kind of rags-to-riches story, that’s fabulous. But he made this observation back in the 30s. About Us, and he was making an observation about copper, seeking to transform iron into hemoglobin.

And he was very specific about using that word, transform iron, and he will, and that’s what he does. And then I started thinking about building on that same idea. Copper, transforms oxygen, into the water, to release energy, it is the transformer that is taking these basic substrates’ basic elements and transforms them, so they become usable. They, reinforce the ability to produce and to be able to do whatever kind of work needs to be done. And that’s conference gift is it’s the transform, right? And it’s, that’s not that, that’s taken me 15.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Years to write.


Morley Robbins: Now I see it very differently. I knew it was important, but it’s like, there’s like this holy grail quest about it. Right? It’s fascinating.


Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s like Zen in the art of copper mastery. Right? understand more and more. You know, it’s so so going back to the recycling and the negative regulator. And we did talk about how vitamin D is shown to keep the negative regulator from operating effectively because he will. So maybe get into that more later, because I’m kind of curious where you mentioned, the only way to continue recycling is through iron egress. And I didn’t understand what that meant.

So when the body has the negative regulator, there’s no copper to positively regulate the recycling of red blood cells that have decided, well, I look at it as the dungeon door that you know, that comes down and the chains come down and claps the door down. That’s exactly right. And then that way, your body is now creating a whole bunch of exhaust, but it’s also I guess, fermenting glucose, not using oxygen, aerobic ly continue to make energy, but in order to continue the recycling the iron egress, so I didn’t understand that.

Maybe you could also talk about that and then the other environmental factors that make the door not go down and why that’s a problem given that the negative regulator needs to turn on given that you don’t have the copper to positive reregulate so yeah, maybe we can kind of go down that pathway now.


Morley Robbins: Okay. So bring the football season. I guess we’re in the playoffs.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Almost.


Morley Robbins: Coming up to it. And so forgive us. We’re going to use a football analogy. And I will listen to this is new as a nuance of football, but everyone knows what quarterback knows, the quarterback makes the plays quarterback gets the MVP trophy. A quarterback is a positive regulator on a football team very clearly. They’re the ones calling the plays, they’re the ones making the plays.

And I think it’s a very easy analogy. The negative regulator on a football team is called the middle linebacker. Nobody wants to be by the middle linebacker, because he shuts down the play, right? That’s their job. They’re shutting it down. So what we’re looking at here is, the body is designed to work if we’re clipping along and making two and a half million red blood cells a second, the body has this obsessive need to be constantly rebuilding turning iron into hemoglobin, which can then go into feed the, the amount of hemoglobin in one red blood cell. It’s, it’s like a billion. It’s like it’s ridiculous numbers, huge numbers.

So the thing is, the body is relying on copper to keep the system going. And when copper starts to get depleted, contrary to what the literature will tell you, Oh, the prevalence of copper deficiency is very rare. Now, I think it’s pretty endemic to the planet, but things with copper started to get low. This negative regulator in the system is called the hep side.

And it’s an acute microbial peptide, or what waste was really designed to do is to shut down the recycling program for iron to keep it away from the pathogens, keep the iron in the tissue that’s working with the macrophages, the PacMan, that gobble up the dying red blood cells. Keep that iron in the macrophages so I can’t get out into the bloodstream. Because the good bacteria are in our gut, the bad bacteria are in our blood. And as soon as iron gets to a level of excess, the pathogens have a feeding frenzy.

That’s well well documented. And the thing is, the body is designed to recycle. The body is designed to rely on the positive regulator, keeping the wheels spinning. But when it perceives that, it’s not able to do that, it’s going to invite the synthesis of the negative regulator, it’s coming out of the liver livers a command central for making have side hip side is keyed off by interleukin six, in particular, inflammation is what’s really going to trigger it most of all, and sugar will trigger it without any shooting must cause inflammation while it does.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Cut according to nature wants you fat. That’s the survival switch. But they failed to mention anything about the bioavailable copper and the positive regulation. Exactly right.


Morley Robbins: And so the thing is that the body has this mechanism of turning on the upside to shut down the arm recycling to keep it away from the pathogens. And that’s called our immune system. Right now. It’s a primal response to what’s perceived as a threat. Right?


Dr. Joel Rosen: And just to interject, it would be great because I again, told you this that I really enjoyed. I don’t enjoy hearing you say, you know when I kick the bucket, but I enjoyed when you say when I kick the bucket that if I had made the change of doctor looking at anemia, with not the knee-jerk reaction of let’s pump you with more iron, but it’s a chronic illness. I think what happens is hopefully not just what happens, but the whole mentality of Wait, is the body doing something intelligent here? Or is it something that we need to pharmaceutically override and shut down and support?


Morley Robbins: It took me two or three years of working with clients who had what they said was anemia. Though he was technically hemoglobin, he needed me only to refer to low hemoglobin. It doesn’t refer to low ferritin. It doesn’t refer to the low serum iron. It’s been bastardized over the years. But typically it’s referring to definition, by definition, do we have enough red blood cells in the blood and therefore hemoglobin to support that? That’s true anemia.

And what Joe was referring to here is this. The abject confusion about anemia of iron deficiency. There’s not enough iron in the body is showing low in the blood. But no one’s thinking about what’s iron stands in the tissue. So the blood is anemic, but it’s the tissue.


Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s like looking out in the ocean, there are no boats, there are no boats in the sea, we’ll take your blind. Oh, there’s a whole other ocean over here. There are a lot of boats over there.


Morley Robbins: True. And so getting people to realize that iron presents differently different tissue. That’s, that’s huge. But getting kidney practitioners to realize, wow, there’s a way I described it in one of my presentations. There’s a calculus to accomplish its role in regulating iron tablets. But what doctors have been taught to us is just a ruler. There’s a layer, but you don’t solve calculus with a ruler,


Dr. Joel Rosen: And the ruler is off, by the way. Yeah, like not only is it measuring the absolute at the absolute numbers are way up here, when you can be telling down here that if you’re going to use a ruler, at least use a real ruler accurately, exactly, you know.


Morley Robbins: And the thing is that we have signed the starts to flex its muscles because the liver perceives there’s inflammation.


Dr. Joel Rosen: it’s a cell danger, it’s a cell danger response exactly.


Morley Robbins: Right. And all of all the immune systems to ways we got to batten down the hatches, we’ve got to stop the iron egress. So that iron is not going to get into the bloodstream to feed the pathogen, right? So very simple response. And you make the comment about the body doing something intelligent? What it was gonna say a minute ago is it took me a long time to figure out why people have low hemoglobin. It’s actually pretty simple. The body knows there isn’t enough bioavailable copper, to activate the oxygen.

So why would I bring more oxygen into a system that I know can’t support it? So it’s going to regulate down the production of hemoglobin, so we’re not going to have as much oxygen so that if we have too much oxygen in the system, there’s no copper to either activated or deactivated where you’re going to have oxygen is just coming out. Right. And I think the body does have the intelligence to say, hey, stop, yeah, we don’t need all this.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Oil on the fire. Exactly. Well, that same thing happens with the thyroid Marli, I see that as well. So that the body is intelligent, we don’t need to continue fanning the fire. Right. So let’s slow down the thyroid signaling, the thyroid uptake, the thyroid conversion, let’s produce antibodies, let’s go out of our way to do whatever we can to slow this oxygen sensing and metabolic activation of oxygen that’s only going to get converted into hydroxyl radicals or it’s going to get to oxidize.

And I think that’s a problem. Very similar in the sense that, well, let’s just give you thyroid hormone, or let’s just pour more iron in there and not look at what’s actually going on.


Morley Robbins: Yeah, there’s there isn’t enough awareness that, again, the biggest bolus of iron in the body 70% is in hemoglobin. Another 10% is in muscles called myoglobin. So it’s 80% of the iron in the body is a waiter carrying oxygen. Right? Who’s the chef that slicing and dices the oxygen that’s covered? And no one’s thinking about that side of the equation? It’s all about supply. Well, are we able to work with it? And there’s a voice in one article. It was an article about hypoxia.

When we hear the word hypoxia, we suddenly go to the top of Mount Everest. Its altitude, and lack of oxygen. But that’s not what hypoxia is referring to. at a cellular level. It’s functional hypoxia. It’s not a lack of oxygen, it’s the inability to activate the oxygen. And if the oxygen can’t be activated, because copper is not present in the mitochondria, that is going to be turned into an oxidant. It’s going to be superoxide. It’s going to be hydrogen peroxide is going to be a hydroxyl radical, it might be peroxy nitrite.

Oh no. And it’s going to devolve into one of those. And that means it’s not available to become water because it’s already been transformed into one of these other and that’s an ending the design of our body is such that our maker and mother nature wants copper to both activate oxygen to make energy and deactivate the oxygens to clear the exhaust. I’m not sure I would have designed the system that way. But that’s the job of copper is to work both sides. It’s offense-defense, right? And it’s totally dependent on bioavailable copper to make that happen.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so so then we You did mention so this is where I’m a bit confused. So if Vitamin D has shown to not allow that negative regulator to slam the door shut, right, so now that it continues to want to do the reticular, endothelial recycling through the movement of iron yet it doesn’t have the key, or the concierge to move it out of the tissues. So what kind happened?


Morley Robbins: I mean there’s, it’s it isn’t just 5g, it’s ascorbic acid, right was another. I’m trying to think.


Dr. Joel Rosen: There was Kairos, ACE inhibitors and


Morley Robbins: Tyrosine kinase inhibitors. There’s a whole class of elements, and I want to use my little cheat sheet.


Dr. Joel Rosen: right? Well, that fructose, high corn syrup, fructose, that tells it to shut the door? Or where’s that fitting in?


Morley Robbins: like high fructose corn syrup going to do? Yeah, it’s going to tell it to shut the door. And it is going to begin to produce more uric acid. And then uric acid is going to off-override the head side. And it’s going to start to pull the audio out of the ferret. I mean, it’s absolutely mind-blowing. Right. Right. I mean, it’s just, it’s like, you start to get into some of the second and third-order effects.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. Yeah. And on top of that, what, I think is fascinating is, when there is so much vitamin D. And vitamin A isn’t able to be absorbed or help the nuclear receptor, then that shuts down cellular respiration. Yep. Right. And then now we are glucose burners, and we’re not able to aerobic ly burn fat. And really what I picture Morley is a tailpipe that has massive amounts of smoke coming out of it. Yeah. That’s, it’s like a plane spinning under control, spiraling down, and eventually hitting the floor.

Yeah. So that’s, that’s all of that is kind of where we talked about the last time, right, right. But now where do you feel it needs to go obviously, uric acid is a big one. One thing I do is this is a completely left-field one. But I want to, I want you to help answer this because I think a lot of really good people have not necessarily been taught, all that needs to be taught about the subject.

So it has to do with, copper tubes and a copper one. And you and I had a conversation the other day, a lot of people want the copper one so that it’s in its usable, ready-to-go form, and are being told that copper two isn’t able to be utilized. And it just a pile accumulates, and you have high extracellular copper, that’s basically inert, not able to work. But the amazing thing about Sarup plasm, is the fact that it has the ability to reduce copper to some people feel that it doesn’t do it very effectively, or it doesn’t do it at all, or it’s not worth it to get this sources of copper to maybe we can talk a little bit about that I don’t need to put you on the spot, I want to be able to talk about that.

Because I want to bridge the gap between I think you have a lot of like these sects that sort of divided from these religions. And at the end of the day, instead of having more, they’re so close with their principles and philosophies that you just need a couple of little bridging conversations to say you say you think the same thing I do. But I took a different slant on it. Now that I see your slant, which is in this case, the truth and chemistry and biology 101. But maybe we can talk about it because I personally don’t understand it as much as I like to but as soon as you told me, so we will plasm has the ability to do that it would make perfect sense.


Morley Robbins: Yeah. Just saw this because there, there are several, what are called reductase enzymes, and DC YTB. Step three, I’m sure there are others, they all have this natural ability to reduce right? And so that when we’re talking about chemically reduce, so suddenly x plus two is going to become plus one or something as plus three is going to become plus two.

Right? But the thing is plus one. Cooper’s copper is found inside the cell plus two coup pricks. Copper is found outside the cell. Well, there’s got to be a way to regulate that. And that’s one of the many jobs of pseudo plasmon there’s a fascinating article by a famous middle biologist. His name was Earl freedom. He was sort of the date of metal biology in the 60s 70s 80s, maybe even early 90s But he was four State University. He wrote a really important article in 1968.

In Scientific American, which would be designed for the public. You know, it’s not nature’s Scientific American. He’s talking about the biochemistry of copper. It’s an amazing article gets from 68. But he talks about three forms of copper. So we’ve got this copper two plus two, copper plus one. Copper neutral, copper zero. I never, I’ve never seen him know. And it’s another valence for copper. And what does that mean? It means it’s immediately accessible to the body to the tissue, there’s no resistance. But what the plus one plus two is there’s got to be a transaction to allow the copper to get in.

And copper zero, there is no transaction, right? And so the form of copper that we use in the recuperate product, it’s copper bis-glycinate. And the folks that LVM figured out a way to make copper, that copper neutral. That’s what runs copper. This question is whether it’s copper neutral. So it really doofuses this whole thing plus one plus two. Right. But I think what’s important is the challenge we face I think, where some of these reductase enzymes are found, is in our gut. And then the exposure to chemicals and different medications and what have you, I think it really compromised our reductase bacteria.

Right? That’s where I think that’s where the challenge is right to help restore this natural mechanism. And there’s no question that that felt the Ferro oxidase enzyme function is critical for the Ferro oxidase was referring to oxidizing, but this rule plasmin protein, as many and varied functionalities. And so the gut needs to have more bioavailable copper, right to do that.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. And that, and I always look at it as demand and supply. So if you think about that, that would be the I guess that’s the supply, right? In terms of you having the healthy flora to be able to reduce the copper one, because it’s able to do that. So it’s supplying more, whereas the demand with the farming practices and the leaching of our minerals and the glyphosate and the not ripening of our foods, and just it’s not able to make the available copper and it’s in its ready to go state.

So your demand is that much higher? And I think that’s the argument is, is that in a lot of the crappier products or food sources, you’re getting too much of the copper to then our body has mainly been designed to have to reduce I don’t know if that’s true or not, but I would imagine the supply is, is lower, and the demand is higher.


Morley Robbins: Yeah. Right. And I think, you know, Charlie Parker, governance is so utterly broken was probably the most articulate about the proper copper, right? But he was really referring to it from the standpoint of in the agricultural setting, you can spray copper down on the soil, and the microbes know what to do to turn that into that copper one, right to get it into the plant.

Right. But in order, it’s going to have to get back to copper in order to get back into the body. I mean, it’s just, there’s a constant, right flip-flop that’s taking place. And so I think that there’s an undue emphasis placed on valence when in fact, what we need to be focusing on is, how do we support the body’s natural ability to make bioavailable copper to make the Well, that’s


Dr. Joel Rosen: The last thing and I think it’s important to mention that when you told me the other day that you had talked to Charlie, and he did mention to you that the Surulere plasm. He didn’t understand, I think the nuance of the bioavailable copper. And I mentioned to you that he was wrong about that, not to you know, this disparages anyone or no, he.


Morley Robbins: You know, his initial response was sort of a puzzle that has nothing to do with copper status. And I said, Well, I think it’s more complicated, or it’s more foundational, and over a two-year period, or after a two-year period, he came to both call me personally but also publicly say, right, he’s right about smooth, right. So he really, I get a lot of credit for taking the time and Energy to study it and be able to say, Hey, I was wrong. There is more to the story. And so I just think it’s important for people within the nutritional and medical arts community to understand that there is a subtlety to this, that is not being openly taught at the level that I think it needs to be. Right.


Dr. Joel Rosen: This is a good segue to what we talked about in terms of, what do we do about this? Right? I mean, and I really love the concept, we talked about the Pentium chip and how the RCEP is really, the overriding stop doing these things that deplete your bioavailable copper, start doing these things.

But then we talked about we have really great minds and practitioners that have really followed that to a tee. But yeah, because of the perfect storm of life and the environment. And I guess if you will post-traumatic stressors in their life and other nuances, that they’re not getting those next level of improvements.


Morley Robbins: Exactly. Yeah, they’re all They’re always going to be some roadblocks in the way, right? And to me, the biggest roadblock is more of an emotional nature, unwillingness to let go of fears or anxieties or whatever the emotional issues might be. But there are others. And we can get into that. But I think people need to realize that the body does respond to energy. But when there’s emotional unrest, it’s going to deplete the energy in the system, right? It’s gonna have a big hit.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I think a lot of people miss that, too. Right. And we’ve talked about this to where I think it’s really important to when you’re a practitioner, and you work with a patient, so many of them are like this morally, like, okay, like, I’ve been here. I’ve been there. I’ve been here. I’ve been there. I don’t want to be there. Yes. Well, where do you want to go? Well, I don’t want to be there anymore. I don’t want to go there.

And it’s like, well, what about over here? Like, where do you want to go? So I think that is a really important part of the emotional component. Because if you don’t know what the destination looks like, how do you know if you’re getting closer to it?


Morley Robbins: Totally agree. It’s, it’s huge. And people keep playing these tapes from the past? Right? I don’t have a sense of what are they really trying to grasp. Right? What is the truth? What is, their passion? What are they striving for, they keep throwing the anchor back here, right, and it’s just they get stuck, they do definitely get stuck.


Dr. Joel Rosen: So So then, as far as the other things that we talked about, you talked a little bit about, and this is kind of all over the place. And I have noted here what I’m looking at. And I think these are good talks in terms of a toffee G, and what a toughie G is, and a toffee g of ferritin. That was a word that I hadn’t heard before combined together, and how copper is necessary for that.

So I’m interested to know and you give me research articles that I won’t need to get into that I want to, but what have you seen in your research of a toffee, G toffee g of ferritin, how copper plays a pivotal role in that sort of a shift and what we’re talking about, but I would love to get into that too because I feel like you mentioned and I tell people that one of the major activators of your immune system, and NADPH oxidase enzyme, and histamine is the fact that iron is going to oxidize. k

And when Iron oxidizes like that, that’s a major growth factor. mTOR is stimulated. And you’ve mentioned that many times. And I’m glad you have in terms of people need to realize we’re in a constant growth cycle. And they do mention that in the book, right 365 We have access to fruits, we have access to light 24/7 We’re eating all the time.

So it’s necessary and vital for those nonresponders to implement into their strategy, the ability to plow the fields, instead of always growing the seeds and recycling the soils and removing misfolded I think people are understanding that now they understand the term autophagy but they only use the an eat intermittent fast, or I need to restrict my proteins. But we’re back at the Pentium here in terms of copper and how this all regulates it. So maybe explain that I’d love to hear about that.


Morley Robbins: Well, the thing is a very simple rule. Any Condition that’s not working right and begins with the letter A these vitamin A autophagy officers not working right and a lot of people, right. So how do you make a compromise you got to have retinol, right? And so you get into temperature, you suddenly find out that, again, we’re back to these high-energy peroxides.

And they’ve got, they’ve got to have energy, and you’ve got to do what they do. It’s like, oh, my gosh, we’re back to bioavailable copper again. And it’s so subtle in its presence, but it’s the activity must take. And again, there’s constant recycling in our bodies. And the literature is very clear about what happens when retinol comes in on the scene, it begins to ignite. I think there’s an energy to it in and of itself.

But it’s enabling the transactions that need to take place to support the ongoing process of rebuilding the body. It’s, to me it’s, it’s fascinating that they gave a Nobel Prize for autophagy. I don’t remember them talking about it.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I’ve seen some pretty big influencers that I’ve seen at metabolic summits, the older names we know, and I asked them about vitamin A and their deem that deer in the headlights. But it’s interesting, as we’re talking, it would make sense that if we have to recycle 2.5 million red blood cells per second, not to even get into the orders of magnitude of heme and hemoglobin.

But if we have to do that, and that’s called our reticular endothelial system, and that’s our recycling, it would make sense if that’s not happening, then our recycling of misfolded proteins isn’t happening, our entire recycling is not happening.


Morley Robbins: I was reading a fascinating article this morning about movement disorders, you know, Parkinson’s and other related disorders, right, and there’s a dozen or so tied to hematology and the inability to replace the red blood cells properly. It’s an early warning sign that there’s a problem. And, again, they don’t go into the level of detail about bioavailable copper that I want. But the fact of the matter is, they were able to connect hematology to movement disorders, which means that the blood is not being replaced properly, and the recycling system is not working properly. It’s creating exhaust in the system. And it’s playing out in the signaling for neurotransmitters and other nuances of movement in the body.


Dr. Joel Rosen: And you know, it’s interesting, because it shouldn’t be so head-scratching or confusing if even you’re a layperson and wondering why we’re talking about copper and why it’s all copper centric. I mean, think about the plug in the wire plug and the copper wire that makes it work. Think about I love this when you said you know iron is more structural, copper is more catalytic in the buildings, the copper keeps the current flowing, and the pipes moving, whereas the iron keeps the structure up, right? Just a segue I told you about a young lady who emailed me.

And she’s, you know, she’s in a, in more of a difficult, I guess, a European country where it’s difficult to get testing. And it’s even harder to get good providers that understand this. But it’s deflating Morley when you present this message of how important copper is. And then you give them advice. And then they tell you Well, I’m concerned and it’s not their fault. It’s what they’re being taught and told by their providers, this thing of copper toxicity, conference, copper toxicity. So I guess for our viewers, is there a 62nd? Elevator Pitch to explain? Hey, it’s not toxic? You just you’re being told the exact opposite?


Morley Robbins: I mean, what is there a case to do a real quick deal with the copper toxicity issue because it’s an important one? The copper, ratio of copper and iron is very, very important in understanding the body. So for every atom of copper, there are at least 50 Atoms of iron.

And get on appreciate that they don’t understand that, that the copper atom is completely outnumbered. In the same way that generals are outnumbered by foot soldiers. We’re back to the same concept of Oh, was there someone who has intelligence tell him the other guys that don’t know what to do? Well, to me, iron is it’s a dumbwaiter. If 80% of iron is carrying oxygen, it’s a dumbwaiter. It does what it’s told to do. And it’s been glorified into the stomach.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Those are the things in the buildings. Right. So it’s more it’s a dominator. Yeah. again, exactly.


Morley Robbins: But the thing is that what science is trying to do is turn iron into a sentient being. It is not such it is not thoughtful. I could go on for a couple of hours about what Ray Hopper does, but basically taking orders and falling when placed close to do, right?

But the thing is if you don’t appreciate that, if you don’t understand both the order of magnitude, there’s way more iron in the body than there is copper what they’re trying to say let’s pretend that copper is a Navy Seal, and I are digital warriors. And we know that I interact with oxygen, incomparable to they both will interact with oxygen.

But the design from Mother Nature is for copper to make the oxygen usable. And to clear the exhaust. I entered either carry it or create static creates a lot of exhaust. And so we’ve got this order of magnitude at least 50 to one more iron, and copper. And we have this, this copper finds its way into enzymes that work with the oxygen. Iron is not finding its way into enzymes to carry it. It literally just carries it and does its job.

And so the other side of it is the whole notion of copper toxicity was the brainchild of Carl Pfeiffer’s famous MD Ph.D. Back in the 60s, he wrote a very important book called mental elemental nutrients written I think it was like 68 or something like that. And he wrote articles about the different elements but he was really fascinated by copper.

And in a particularly poignant article, he talked about copper becoming unbound from some Rouleau plasmon under conditions of stress, which we’ve talked about, right? Well, that phrase, copper becoming unbound from smooth plasma became Unbound, copper became free copper became copper toxicity. And it was all the nuances of the original scientific finding that then like like a game of telephone, you know, you’re in a big circle. Yeah, the original message got changed, and by the time it got changed, it went from being copper unbound from its proteins rule plasm to its toxic, it’s like the copper is always bound.

If it’s not bound to surreal plasma, which is where I’ve seen as high as 90% of the copper in the blood is bound to circular plasmon, we have to keep one thing in mind. Only 1% of the copper is in the blood, right? 99% is in the tissue folks, right? And when it’s in the tissue it works with enzymes, when it’s inside the cell is bound to a ligand. Can you believe they don’t know what that ligand is?

They don’t know what the partner is to copper. Is it that they don’t know or they don’t want us to know I don’t know? But the point is, the vast majority of copper is in our tissue. Only 1% of the blood, but when it’s not bound to swallow plasmon, it’s bound to albumin bound to the amino acid histidine is bound to transport a protein called Trans country.

And one of my favorite cover researchers is at Hopkins from the MOSFET level. Lutsenko she’s brilliant, absolutely brilliant about copper. The article that she wrote back in 2018 was about the heart, mind body, and soul of copper. That was a really cool article. But the thing is, she studied the amount of free copper inside the cell. And it was one to the negative 10 to the negative 21. It’s called Zepto. Bore, there are 21 zeros. And that one, it’s virtually impossible to have the copper unknown right in the tissue. Right?


Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s just it’s so so where was Pfeiffer getting his information from?


Morley Robbins: Well, yeah, again, he was looking at it in the blood. He made this cup this comment about copper and do this game of telephone. His original finding got turned into free copper unbelt free copper means it’s toxic.

And there’s a lot of research that has been done over the years to try to blame copper for the lipid peroxidation is taking place. Copper is causing LDL to be a problem child and again, it’s just So let’s talk about the iron. That’s 50 times high, right? But they don’t.


Dr. Joel Rosen: But it’s always amazing to me when those broken telephones actually are the enduring things, how that happens. But just as a side note, I was watching the interview with Dr. Mercola. And I wanted to talk numbers. So let’s talk about the iron sinkhole that we have in our bodies, right? Because that’s what we have, right? And you and you, conservatively said, times your age by 365 times that by 365. And that in a very, very conservative way, will be the amount of iron that you’ve accumulated over your lifetime. It’s not me that’s not Morley Robbins.


Morley Robbins: Biologist. Right. That’s Robert. Correct. That’s right. It’s right.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, I think it goes without saying whenever you, I mean, you have opinions, but their opinions are based on research, right? So, so talk the numbers, because I think it’s really important for people to realize because I see this with my patient base, where when you start to turn on the engine by making more bioavailable copper, it’s kind of like a rebuilt engine, in the sense that you have a lot of black smoke to clear out once you get the engine working, right.

And that’s where you have to be very slow and methodical because it’s not necessarily more or better, you don’t want to what I call metabolically overwhelm the system and go into shutdown mode. But with that being said, there is an impetus as a major tool, besides the things that we recommend to stop doing.

And the things that we start to we recommend to start doing in terms of the numbers, maybe get into that more than like how much iron typically is released in a donation? How much iron should we have? How much do we typically have, so that we can get an idea that this is a verb, this is something that’s going to be ongoing? Right? So maybe we can talk a little bit about that?


Morley Robbins: Yeah, so I just celebrated my 70th birthday back in November. So you take your age times 365? Well, this is the Medal of Honor. It was 25,000.


Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s conservative, right? I mean, obviously, maybe like 20 years ago, probably would have been a lot higher with the dietary enriched foods you would have been eating and so forth.


Morley Robbins: So a band is supposed to have about 5000 milligrams, five times more hunger right now, technically, I may not have that much. But theoretically, right. But the thing is, people are talking about this formula. People are not aware of the fact that every day we’re on the planet is accumulating one milligram, at least one milligram. That’s before we got dietarily.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Exactly right.


Dr. Joel Rosen & Morley Robbins: And we’re not even taking supplements, enriched foods, except right.


Morley Robbins: So the thing is, it couldn’t be higher. Right, right. So where, where is that iron going? It’s going in the liver and the spleen. It’s just, especially when there is adequate copper in the diet. If copper is low iron is going to accumulate in the body. Where is it going to heal it? First and foremost, it’s always going to go to the spleen. It has this gravitation always to the liver.

I’m not exactly sure why. But its people need to know. And that was first established in 1928. Again, work at the University of Wisconsin, where Dr. LVM was part of the team that came up with that. And then another Dr. McHargue, a year later confirmed their findings. So it sounds like oh, it was a bunch of wackos. It was several notable people, notable people and it’s been replicated regularly right for me. But the thing is, people don’t know this, right?

They don’t know that low copper in the diet is going to accumulate iron in the tissue. That’s important thing to note that as we age, there is this cumulate accumulative effect of copper or seeming iron billion or tissue and what’s going to happen? There’s going to be more oxidative stress as the iron builds. And the more rusting more of us why rusting the mitochondria are going to start to choke on all this iron, right? Because they don’t know what to do with it.

All right, and the reason why we talk about doing the blood donations is to begin to offload that iron. So when you do a standard blood donation you’re going to use you’re going to fill a bag that can hold 500 milliliters of fluid and based on that saturation, right? This one is sensory. Without numbers, about half of that is going to be honored. So you’re going to get rid of 250 milligrams of iron. Right? I’m gonna do a lot of donuts.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Right to get a wonder in your math formula, though, if you are, I mean, all things created equal, which we have negative regulators and lack of positive regulators. But could you do 24 times 365? Given that you need 24 units of iron to recycle the 24-hour supply of red blood cells? Is that a fair equation or not necessarily?


Morley Robbins: I’ve thought about it. Yeah, I don’t know what to do with that right equation.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? So what we’re basically saying is 24 milligrams are needed. 25 milligrams of iron is needed to do the heavy lifting of recycling all the 2.5 million red blood pulp cells per second times 60 times 60 times 24, you only need 24 milligrams of iron to do that. Right? It is amazing in and of itself.


Morley Robbins: It says The thing is, what, according to the great clinicians and scientists back in the 20s, you know, what did they know? Right? But, back in the day, they were measuring the amount of iron that the mom donates to the baby. And the amount of copper, then the amount of damage to the baby. So certainly, Joe and I are healthy, we have livers that have about seven milligrams of copper. And when we were born, it was 70 milligrams of copper in our liver, a carrot, or a cup of coffee cover, right?

And that’s a huge bolus of copper right? Now for healthy, we have about 100 milligrams of copper. So let’s talk about the iron side, right? Iron, the donation of iron from balm is supposed to be about 450 milligrams of iron for right. So 450 versus 70. Right? So it’s about six times more iron.

But now, I’m, you know, that 25,000 milligrams, and 100 milligrams of copper if I’m lucky that the ratio is way out of whack. Right, right. And so don’t want to stick in about this. Right now. I was thinking about this constant process of adding iron to the food system through the supplements that we’re taking, and all the other variations. And where’s the first copper supplementation? Where’s the copper fortification? Yeah, it’s just it doesn’t even exist, except in some of the supplements that you can find. And no one’s aware of the order of magnitude of distortion that we started out with 450 Iron 770 comp.


Dr. Joel Rosen: 6161. Do you think that’s the maybe that’s ideal ratio that if you speculate that’s what we’re endowed with, that’s what optimally would be throughout our life cycle?


Morley Robbins: When we’ve done 3600 milligrams.


Morley Robbins & Dr. Joel Rosen: of iron? Right?


Dr. Joel Rosen: Just for collapse, right?


Morley Robbins: Yeah, there definitely would be eating. What Joel was getting to is something that I’ve been thinking about in the last probably a year, year and a half, given the power and the importance of other recycling systems. It’s really important here is that I think the numbers as you’re, as you’re coming to two pieces together the way I have, I think the numbers for iron could be dramatically less.

And when you get into the research that was done the in the 30s, especially the amount of copper that was in our blood was much higher, or we consider 100 is healthy now that we’re seeing people with 151, at much, much, much higher. That wasn’t because of inflammation. It was just higher levels of blood. Right. So it’s just the numbers have gotten distorted over the.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Serum iron. Exactly. ceremony, which is 1%. Right, right. Yeah. Right. Interesting. So I’m all over the place here with my questions, because it’s kind of coming to me No. So so. So one of the things on the Start list is magnesium, and I had a q&a with my group that I worked with today. And they asked me a question about transdermal magnesium. I said, Well, you know, I actually know Morley, I’m going to talk to him and ask him, so between ingested malleolar glycinate or topical magnesium is one of the uses of water or magnesium water or salts, right flakes?

Is there the question I had from one of my patients was, is it feasible to get through food It’s and through just the topical without having to do the ingestion of the mallet and the glycinate? Have you seen that historically or anecdotally?


Morley Robbins: Intriguing. I don’t know that I’ve seen it a lot. I think when I encourage people to do this get as many varied forms of magnesium as they can, right? So we’ve got magnesium water, and the use of bicarbonate would probably be the use. If you really, if you’re not willing to make it for yourself.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Those are the hydrogen waters. Is that what that is? Have you seen those?


Morley Robbins: Well, I have seen them. I think there were.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Magnesium. And there are no, I don’t know that that was one of the active ingredients.


Morley Robbins: I don’t know about that particular don’t but go to a Polish supermarket. They sell Polish water. Poland has the highest concentration of magnesium on the planet. God knows why. But, the magnesium impulse water is amazing. So magnesium water, transdermal, if you can go to the ocean, or if you can get some Epsom salts or transdermal it’s a great way and the absorption through the skin is very powerful.

The third form is dietary, again, anything that’s green, is supposed to have magnesium, right, does it? I don’t know, right? There are some really interesting things that are taking place. So I was crushed when I was talking to a supermarket executive years ago, talking about how the broccoli looked so green. And he said, Do you know how they make it green like that?

And I braced myself for impact. They use nitric oxide, they force the color I don’t know, I didn’t have the presence of mine was kind of in freefall. But it’s like, oh my gosh, they’re engineering the color, not to magnesium, but to other viewers. So it just raises all sorts of questions how much magnesium is, the product for you? Right?

Because if it’s not in the soil, it’s not going to get on the planet, right? So again, wherever possible, find organic food raised by responsible farmers, right? And that was never down to supplements. And I think we live in a world now where there’s so much stress, both acute and chronic. I don’t think we can afford not to supplement right with the mineral that’s the chill pill.


Dr. Joel Rosen: right? However, there you do put in your protocol. And I want a little more clarification from you that some people will need to have the cocktail loaded first. So maybe describe that if people have been taking magnesium, and they he hit an upper lip limit bowel intolerance is frequent, but more importantly, just doesn’t seem to be the chill pill. Right? What’s going on? What’s going on there?


Morley Robbins: What happens is the adrenal glands, which are sitting on top of our kidneys, so adrenal means add renal on top of that kidney. The adrenal glands are very sensitive to minerals, especially sodium and magnesium. And it’s the ratio so do we make these a tic tac toe? how healthy they are.

And you start pumping in a lot of magnesium to someone who has been under a lot of stress, or what you’re going to do is if sodium was here, and you start increasing magnesium, you’re going to tank their adrenals. And their energy is going to plumb it. Right. Right. And so what do we encourage people to do, who did stress cadets, or live that lifestyle?

They want to take the adrenal cocktail, which has sodium potassium the vitamin C, to support and nourish the adrenal glands, so that when you then begin to introduce magnesium, you’re not going to overwhelm them, right?


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, there’s an art to it. I mean, I love the idea of following the stops. Yeah, it makes sense. Like just stop these things. And some of them were hard for me because I was a practitioner that recommended some of these things. Sure. I recommended molybdenum a lot of the time for sulfites that have that Su ox enzyme that isn’t working effectively and molybdenum is the cofactor.

So you can help too, again, I know where you’re going with this if, if bioavailable copper is working effectively, everything’s energetically based. That’s what I love about the concept of the RCP because you’re not down 10 streams down the road, worrying about stopping molybdenum because it was such a good tool in my toolkit to clear out the sulfites.

Now, I’m not creating as much blockage of that enzyme that typically anything that’s inflammatory is going to inhibit Its enzymes. Right, so now I don’t have to worry about speeding it up because I’m speeding it up naturally by removing the thing that’s slowing it down. Exactly. Right. So a lot of the pins will get knocked down as you said with these other responders. These are the people that do fantastic. And you see them all the time. Yeah. And you hear about them all the time. Right?

Right. But then there are the nonresponders where there are just the stress cadets like you’ve said, and they have to nuance it, where don’t just follow it, where you take all these things in phase one, and magnesium is in phase one, and you’re not doing well, you got to go methodically through these and be able to understand why and what and I guess, what’s the art of what you’re seeing in that?


Morley Robbins: And, no, I think it’s an important point. To me, the most important variable in this process with the RCP is doing the individual believes in their body’s natural ability to heal itself. If they have dealt? And a lot of people have been chronically ill for years, right? So they do have doubts, right? They’ve been given a lot of pain, a lot of discomforts, a lot of disorientation.

And they have conditioned themselves that my body is broken, right? There’s a level of fear there. And they met too many practitioners,, my course record with a client was 99, 9999 doctors, right? And when she started the RCEP, everything fell into place. That was a one-a-lifetime shot.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Was there a big fear? The opponent was an


Morley Robbins: Issue, right? She’d been told she was anemic. Right? So. So once you get the right nutrients, and the body knows what to do. Right. But the thing is, very often when I’m working with people, and they’re doing the protocol, fallen facilities, and they plateau. There are only two questions I ask them. Because what we’ve learned about the RCEP, is it does work. What does the RCEP do? It isn’t just making energy, it’s mobilizing iron, right? It will guarantee, you start introducing vital copper to the body, the body will respond accordingly and it will release iron. And so the two questions I asked are, have you donated blood? And have you dumped yours?


Dr. Joel Rosen: fears? Right, let’s go dump your blood and fears at the same time. Exactly.


Morley Robbins: Yeah. And so it’s not to, in any way, dismiss the fact that there are nonresponders, there are people who have genetic morphisms all these other things that we have to be sensitive to. But for the most part, people seem to be responding. And once they’ve cleared that iron overload and they’ve dealt with emotional issues, the body begins to respond accordingly. Right, I can begin to make the adaptations. right.


Dr. Joel Rosen: I guess one of the things we talked about is a good college friend that you have that follows it to the tee, and we talked about how when the iron gets stuck in your integral sites, then you have your four challenges of getting iron out and histamine emotions and parasites. Right. But not just parasites, I would imagine that iron is food for for for all pathogens, right?

For the parasites the high is better, right? And they’re generational, right but with that being said, one of the clinical tools I was mentioning to you is I’ve done many times where I’ll do organic acid tests, which is a urine test that’s looking at systemic microbes, right and it’s being cleared through the kidneys.

So when we talk about mucosal lining, we’re not just talking about a stool test that would be looking at the lower coal and we’re looking at mucous membranes in the sinuses in the bronchial in the respiratory in the Gemma the urinal in the kidney and female reproductive and the.


Morley Robbins: liver. There’s not a science tissue in the liver. Right.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. So, so one of the things that I would say, and I suggest that to you as a clinical Pearl, this is just, I think, just showing off a little bit, but yeah, I think one of the things about that is what we’ve suggested is doing the nebulizers, Yes, and you could nebulize with disinfectants, there’s a really gentle HCL blend, or even a glutathione blend, or anything that even saline I would imagine would be anti-microbial, and that can really attack some of the nonresponders that aren’t getting. You’re not evicting the unwanted poachers from your body. completely by doing Gi programs.


Morley Robbins: Right? I’ve talked to so many clients, and I’m sure you’ve experienced it as well. And I’ll bring up the term parasite. I had, I had a test, right? And I said You know what, that was a stool test. Right? Who’s doing a systemic? Right? That’s the challenge is getting people to realize that the parasites community.


Dr. Joel Rosen: It comes down to the same argument again, with looking in the ocean. Right. And, you know, one of the studies that nailed it for me was, I can’t, I don’t have the photographic memory that you do. But it was a study on autistic children. And they did hair samples, and the ones that had more heavy metals in their hair, were they from the autistic cohort?

Or were they from the nonautistic, they were from the nonautistic. And the reason that is is that they’re getting the heavy metals expressed. So if you take that mentality of, well, I did a hair sample and there were no metals in there, then just because it’s not coming out doesn’t mean it’s not in there. Absolutely. Right. And I think that’s a major mistake. A lot of people, unfortunately, make.


Morley Robbins: Yeah, people don’t know how to properly interpret the hair test. Right? If it’s slow, they think it’s safe, right? That’s not always the case. Right? Especially with the heavy bottles, right? But the important thing is for people to realize that the minerals can be tested.

You can use the hair test, you can use a blood test. I’ve never done minerals in urine, but I know some practitioners do that extensively. But we’re looking at a completely different way to interpret it. Because it’s its minerals coming out, well, are they coming out the right way? And that’s where that’s the nuance is understanding. Under what conditions is it coming out?


Dr. Joel Rose: Yeah, I think there’s there’s an evolution of the practitioner to in terms of they test what they know. Right, right. Like, looking back 10 years ago, I did a lot of food sensitivity testing and micronutrient testing. And I would just reduce, at sickly say, Okay, you’re sensitive to this food, let’s remove it, you have these micronutrient deficiencies, let’s improve it.

However, once you start to, let’s just say put the Pentium chip in the computer and generate energy, then you’re not making massive amounts of histamine that’s taking a flame thrower to the GI tract that’s causing the effect of food sensitivities. So you’re getting to quote unquote, the root cause? Yeah, you’re right, you’re allowing.


Morley Robbins: The body naturally energizes itself, and can bring itself back into balance.


Dr. Joel Rosen: So what’s next morally? What’s next I know, I’m privileged, because potentially, I’ll be seeing a lot more of you in the area. Yeah, I know, you went on this, what did you call it? We called it not a sort of stripped-down sabbatical. So about a strategic sabbatical. strategics.


Morley Robbins: Okay.


Dr. Joel Rosen: And I’m getting more emails now than I had in the past because I think you’re back on the research of articles. But are there any directions that you want to go? Or what’s left still on the to-do list? No, it’s


Morley Robbins: It’s a great question. I think the big macro question is, what can we do to D iron the body faster? And what can we do to recover, and recuperate the body? And I think it’s so important for people to realize that there are mechanisms, but there’s no operating manual. There’s no, you know, there’s no book that we can go through it says, Well, this is how you do it. Right. We’re making this up as we go along. And federalism, obviously, in the Florida area where me, we’ve probably met with seminary practitioners since we’ve been here system.

This is a hotbed of switched-on, folks, many of most of whom almost all of them are aware of, or becoming aware of this guy is probably one of the most proficient in terms of his not just his understanding, but his application of his understanding. I’m very grateful for you but the thing is, more and more people are more and more practitioners are coming to realize that this is a piece of the puzzle that they’ve not known about. Right. And it just presents a foundational component. I think that the real dream is saying what’s next. It’s how do we do and how do we recover?

But Joe referred to the Pentium chip. We would love to see the RCEP become this Pentium chip and practitioners practice, right that it becomes just a natural part of By working with the clients with the patients, that they understand what to avoid them saying what to do, and then begin to address the problems that are beyond the RCP get to that nonresponding component, right? So that they can begin to clear the foundation of the problem so that the body can naturally take care of itself. Right. Right, and begin to move into the more challenging issues.


Dr. Joel Rosen: And I would say you’ll probably get started with more of the alternative practitioners first. But I think once you get into the best one would be the OB G’s and fertility doctors, especially with the research that you’re sending me, can you believe how much retinol and copper is going on in the placenta?

And how genes are orchestrated to be able to infuse that because it’s such a metabolically necessary active tissue? I mean, that’s us, our model for if that’s what that demands, then every single cell organ tissue, and system in the body demands that as well. And changing and pushing over the sacred cows of those highly guarded professions of vitamin A is toxic copper toxicity. It can Oh, it’s amazing that with that advice, there aren’t more challenges than there are.


Morley Robbins: No Well, one of our dear friends is Martha Carlin. She’s she calls herself a citizen scientist, right? And she’s been through the program. She’s a graduate of the ICPC Institute. And she came across some amazing research, especially today, but this one, that she found that I don’t think I sent it to you yet. It implies that copper is what can create a double helix, just by its very presence was like, wait a minute, does that mean the copper needs to be there to make DNA, it was implying that the copper was almost instrumental in creating the energy that allows the DNA to twirl?


Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, that’s how you describe the rotary as well.


Morley Robbins: Right? Exactly. Yeah. So it’s just, there’s so much that we don’t know.


Dr. Joel Rosen: cardiologists, right? At different key genes that we were talking about with that.


Morley Robbins: Absolutely. The defects from a copper-deficient heart, right? So it’s just, there’s so much that we’re piecing together. But at the end of the day, it’s wonderful to know all this, the real subtle actions and reactions of copper, but at the end of the day, we need to figure out how we get it back into someone’s body, right, and make sure that it’s bioavailable, right, that it can begin to run the engine that it’s designed, naturally, to run our mind.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Also, to follow up on that, so you get the practitioners that graduated from the RCP. And now, and they’re not only as you mentioned, they’re the practitioners like me, but they’re also the one that knows, like you and Martha that had a loved one that they want to be able to help and support. But at the same time, how do they make a uniform if I go to Istanbul, or if I go to Moscow, or if I go to Bangkok? Not that I would ever go to McDonald’s, but I would go to the McDonald’s and they would have the fries and they would be the same no matter what country I’m in.

How do we get that for anyone that is, is RCEP aware that they can add their flair to how they practice and what their philosophy is, and what they excel in, that it’s going to be completely no two snowflakes are the same? Right. But yet, they have a standardized, objective, consistent message that they have as foundational tenants that the RCP has created for them to be able to employ in whether they decide to consult one on one or not. But they have that toolkit to be able to just turn key it pardon me to do how they want to do it.


Morley Robbins: No, I think that’s a critical step how do we get this so that it can just really be this modular? It’s I’m not sure what I don’t know if I have an analogy, but it’s like your view flow. It’s like what we can download programs. Right. And this process is this protocol would download in the practice, and it would completely change there.


Dr. Joel Rosen: I mean, it does start with nowadays. I guess I did a lot of expensive testing, which I won’t do anymore, because all I need To start, quite frankly, we’re uncomfortable as if I have the full Monty, right, which is all of the how is the cell? How are the cells? respiring? And how is the oxidative? Are they oxygenating? Are they oxidizing? Right? That’s the term.

And then from there, depending on my specific, unique practice, I could do a DNA test. And I was gonna mention that earlier when all of that negative regulation takes place, and your body isn’t able to make energy through recycling that ATP, or recycling that iron to make the red blood cells. That’s where I see these genes get turned on, so that they’re not able to recycle effectively, or they’re not able to convert beta carotene into vitamin A effectively.

Because why I used the analogy this afternoon with my clients. Imagine me having a factory, and we produce a certain widget that’s very specialized, that is in demand that a lot of countries want and we export it to, but no one’s ordering them anymore. So all of a sudden, I’m going to shut that wing of the factory down and and keep what’s keeping the bread and butter and the lights on in the factory and not invest man dollars. how does that translate in our body? Is it genomically signal the turning on of jeans that were meant to recycle effectively, that are no longer recycling?

Absolutely. I mean, you helped me understand that morally. That was like, why am I seeing all these things? But then it’s because the body is so intelligent, like we said it stop asking, How can I overthrow the body and do what I want it to do? And instead of understanding what the body wants me to do.


Morley Robbins: Exactly, and it’s really, it revolves around. We live on a planet that has a lot of oxygen in the air. And we use that oxygen to make energy. But if the oxygen is not being used properly, if the oxygen is creating too much exhaust, that’s when everything begins to respond to that.

And it’s all of the hormones, the neurotransmitters, and the neuro peptides are all oxygen sensors, what’s going on with oxygen? And that? I don’t know if there’s enough awareness about that, that if the oxygen is not being burned properly, being managed properly, being regulated properly, it’s going to create all manner of dysfunction.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I think the Denon Harmon theory of free radicals, I think that it was very important to blow off exhaust so that you can temporarily shift the day jobs to the defense mode exam, but then get out of that exam. And the problem is we’re never getting out of that.


Morley Robbins: Yeah. All right. Yeah. The sympathetic nervous system is going to have a different response to oxidative stress than the parasympathetic, just completely different. Right. And most people are stuck in sympathy. They’re just in constant fight-or-flight mode.

And that has a, you can’t metabolize your environment when you’re in sympathetic overdrive. That’s a basic neurological fact. And I think that needs to be understood. What is it doing? Not just energy production, but exhaust generation?


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I don’t remember who I heard say it. But there was a concern. I don’t know if you agree with this. There was a concern back in the day that taking too many antioxidants doesn’t allow it, there are studies I’m sure that you’ve seen. Too many antioxidants were life-shortening verses. But I don’t know if it’s safe to say that now because we have so much more free radicals that are being made, or we have so much less bioavailable copper and so much more iron, that so much more exhaust is coming that you’re putting a chair off the Titanic when you’re doing an antioxidant approach.


Morley Robbins: And so much of the focus in that research was around nutrient antioxidants. They didn’t get the enzyme, right, endogenous dyes, are just naturally occurring antioxidants, right? And people don’t. People don’t realize that those studies were gamed, and I don’t think they were truly representative of the whole spectrum game study. Yeah, no, no, but they weren’t representative of the full spectrum of capacity, right, that we have in our body.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. So So just in parting, one of the things I proposed morally and we can kind of maybe put it out there and put him on the spot so that I have it on camera. The name of the lights that I have in the back is called the truth about your health.

And it’s weird to have you sitting here because it’s surreal. I don’t know why I came up with it, but it just was one of those things where the truth about health resonated with me. And I think by elucidating, the importance of turning over 2.5 billion red blood cells, million red blood cells per second. And the importance of cellular respiration is really in line with the truth about your health. And what comes first? It’s foundational.

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