Biohacking Adrenal Fatigue with Lucas Aoun

Dr. Joel Rosen: All right Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly and I’m excited to interview My next guest because I’ve just seen his ascent through the rankings and, and relevancy of the world of biohacking. Lucas is an Australian leading biohacker with over seven years of experiencing, researching, and experimenting with nootropics and other performance-enhancing enhancing compounds.

Lucas Owen is extremely motivated to discover something big for science that can benefit millions of people globally. I love that Luke Lucas also offers cutting-edge health content, ranging from nutrition research, homework, hormone research, nootropic research that 99% of the world has never heard of. And we’ll have first-hand ins information from Lucas today, Lucas thrives on offering insanely valuable content on a global scale. And, Lucas, thank you so much for being here today.


Lucas Aoun: Thanks for having me, Joel. Yeah, very, stoked to be here and can’t wait to chat.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, listen, I remember it was a couple of years ago, where you sent me an email, or a DM and I’m always excited to help anyone out that has an interest in learning. I never look at it as a lack mentality whatsoever. If I can help someone else that would help someone else. I don’t feel like that’s infringing on my space. And I’m glad that I did. Because, you know, it goes to show you, you reap what you sow. And now you get contact with someone who’s moving up through the ranks, and you created good karma with that person.


Lucas Aoun: Yeah, it’s funny. Just tell like, just at a keen curiosity reached out just to ask you a few questions. And now like, ever since then, it’s snowballed. And now I’m just doing what I love every day, which is, which is awesome.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, excellent. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about your story, Lucas, because a lot of people that get into this space, have their own Hero’s Journey or what they’ve been through, and I think it helps our listener understand that there are possibilities of getting health back and then using your challenges to make your armor that much more fortified. But why don’t you tell us a little bit about your background and what some of your health challenges may have looked like?


Lucas Aoun: Yeah, sure. I mean, my journey started out playing professional soccer, I was always focused on the performance-enhancing side of things, how I can improve my performance on the soccer field. And then just sort of from there, I ended up studying exercise science and fell in love with like research. And then obviously, I also fell in love with experimentation and seeing what various supplements and various protocols were doing to my biology. And then from there just transitioned out of that exercise science degree and started studying natural empathy. So like a four-year degree here in Melbourne, Australia.

And yeah, just really gained a lot of traction through, you know, researching more about herbs and supplements, and just fell in love with the fact that we can take control of our biology. And then yeah, that’s, that’s been my, my sort of mission is to help share that, what I’ve learned, and all of this underground content that I research, My mission is just to provide people with what I see, I’ve always been, I lead by the premise of, if you know, something that can benefit millions of people, there’s no point withholding that information that is might as well just get it out there and just spread the message. Because as you know, like to spread good vibes, good vibes come back to you.


Dr. Joel Rosen: So yeah, yeah, for sure. I’ve found that that rings true a lot with people that either are insecure or have challenges that they don’t want to share information. And you’re right, it does create reciprocity to bring more into your life. But I’m just curious. So for more for performance-enhancing and your athletic adventures, were there any ever challenges with mental capacity or learning or just energy or fatigue at all for yourself, Lucas? 


Lucas AounYeah, I mean, I did also struggle with acid reflux for many, many years. And my dad’s a pharmacist, so I sort of thought I was privileged in the fact that I could get away with the reflux using proton pump inhibitors or Nexium medications, just to suppress the reflux and that’s really what catapulted me into learning more about physiology and things like that and learned that, you know, it’s doing a great job at suppressing symptoms, but then it was leading to B 12 deficiency.

I had low iron And then all these other negative symptoms of like, correlated with like low iron and things like that. So that’s that did affect my quality of life. And then really just was profoundly fascinated by, you know, our first trial white one particular compound Elfi, Nene. And I tried that before one of my soccer matches and noticed that that was having a dramatic effect on my performance on the soccer field. And I was like, Hmm, what else is out there? Like, what else can I exploit and explore? to benefit my existence? Basically?


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s cool. It’s, it’s interesting being the son of a pharmacist, how you would have almost inherently that susceptibility to want to see how compounds impact your body, but you’ve taken that other fork in the road, and you’re gone going more of the holistic, ergogenic way of helping your body. So how does dad feel about what path you’ve taken and what path he’s taken?


Lucas Aoun: Um, to be honest, at the start, I think he was a little bit, skeptical and questioning whether there’s any research or evidence for natural modalities and things like that. But funnily enough, I think two years into my degree got him off his medications. He was on reflux medications himself, and I ended up, you know, formulating various bitter Herbes and bitter, particular stacks, which I think now looking back to the very, very basic, but since then he’s, you know, he’s been, doesn’t use his reflux medication since. And I worked in the pharmacy as well, like I, I worked there for like, four or five years on understanding what it’s like to be in an environment.

And without a doubt, it’s been super beneficial for my growth. And I’m, again, I’m not, although I am studying, you know, natural beauty and holistic medicine, I’m still, you know, I still will look at how they do things and utilize those modalities were, where necessary. Like, I’m not one of those hippie naturopaths. That’s like, you know, just to herbal medicine, and that is like, I think there’s a time and place for both for sure.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, and that’s where the word ergogenic comes into play. Right? So why don’t you tell our listeners with the CEO and founder of ergogenic Health what ergogenic means and what ergogenic Health stands for?


Lucas Aoun: Yeah, so the word ergogenic just refers to any technique, substance, or protocol that can improve physiological or psychological performance. So it’s very much based on less so about the disease and sickness model. But how can we take someone who’s already quite healthy, or performing quite well to perform even better and feel even better? It’s sort of like enhancing your quality of life. So really, that word ergogenic, I fell in love with, when I was doing my research, I was like, Damn, that’s a cool word. I want to use that. And then I just, I use as my business name, ergogenic health. So really, I try and tell people that my business is not just focused on, you know, the disease sickness model, but more about promoting vitality, wellness, and quality of life.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, yeah. And you know, what’s so great about that, too, is because I happen to have my own health story of fatigue and exhaustion and burnout. And I discovered that doctors don’t believe in this phenomenon. And they black and white it as it’s either or it isn’t. And I had to go through my journey to get my health back. So the people that I help are typically those types of people that are exhausted and burnt out. But what I love is the idea of for people that are looking to already improve their performance, who like dedicate years and decades to the difference, I can’t remember what comedian it was.

But they imagine like imagine, and like the 100-yard dash, where you train forever. And it’s like this, this, like you were this behind, you know, and ergogenic could be the difference between a gold medal and not but ultimately extrapolate those concepts, Lucas, to people that are exhausted and burnt out, and still get the benefit and that much even more, because they have such a weakened, debilitated starting point. So why don’t we transition into that?

Because I’m excited to talk about that with you in terms of what some of these novel ergogenic and or no, no trophic support you have. So why don’t you start with no Tropix? And what does that word mean, for perhaps the listener that I know your listener knows it, and perhaps my listener knows it, but some of us don’t. So what exactly is it?


Lucas Aoun: Yeah. So just Firstly, what you mentioned about that 1% difference, I think that’s true. Like it needs to be Taking into account the fine details. And that’s where I think some of these compounds can help. And so the word nootropics refers to any compound, either natural or synthetic, that can improve any aspect of cognitive function. So that can be a compound that improves memory concentration, alertness, motivation, reduce anxiety, all of the different aspects of cognitive performance.

And so like, the very, probably the most well known, quote, unquote, like a nootropic, would be caffeine, caffeine, your listeners will know a lot about caffeine from Chrome and adrenal fatigue perspective. But we do know a lot about how caffeine acts in the brain. And we do know if you know quite well, which receptors it binds to, and activates, and triggers.

So caffeine is technical Yes, it’s a nootropic. But other nootropics are, that can deliver that energy boost and improve alertness without the side effects of the increased blood pressure raising cortisol, you know, and then the withdrawal and tolerance, which is, you know, there are so many compounds out there.


Dr. Joel Rosen: So then there’s the word nootropic, then encompass the fact that not only do we want to take this natural or synthetic compound and improve physiology, 1% or more, but we also want to minimize or eliminate or not even have those negative side effects.


Lucas Aoun: Yeah, yeah, as part of the official definition for a nootropic. There are five key criteria. That’s established by a Romanian chemist, Corneliu GA, he stated, like five key criteria. The first one is that they have to improve learning and memory, they have to protect the brain against various chemical stresses, they have to protect the brain against physical toxins. And they also have to be free of the typical side effects associated with psychostimulants, and like depleting compounds.

So you can sort of seeing how nootropics are there, as like neuroprotective that compounding they lead to a better brain, better brain function, and better brain infrastructure over time? Whereas compounds like certain stimulants and things like that they can, they can Rob from tomorrow. So they’re not nootropics they’re depleting the body’s resources.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. Okay, great. So what I love about that also, is because I like that concept, especially for biohackers, they don’t seem to be as hippyish in terms. I mean, I’m more of a hippie, right? So, but they don’t seem to be as hippyish in terms of, hey, if it’s a nootropic, and it’s synthetic, but it fits the definition of those five key things that you mentioned.

And it doesn’t create negative effects than what’s the problem. And I agree with that to a certain extent, I mean, I can’t prescribe in that capacity. But I would agree with that in terms of if we can harness not just nootropics but medications that are out there that have different nootropic effects, then we can kind of Biohack in a way that is is ultimately helping our body. So why don’t you tell us your definition of what it is to Biohack?


Lucas Aoun: Yeah, I mean, I was just thinking of a key sort of foundational aspect there. Like the whole premise of biohacking for me is to utilize various aspects of your environment and utilizing resources to improve your quality of life. So looking at it as like, you’re just every day you’re implementing one new strategy to improve your baseline like your just your baseline state of the functioning or being so and that can be broken up into various categories. You know, biohacking sleep. biohacking, digestion just means optimizing your quality of life.

But really, I think the key point is that we’re building upon infrastructure and we’re building a foundation that’s getting stronger and stronger and more robust over time. Not that we’re utilizing things that are acutely gonna give us an increase in performance. But then tomorrow, we’re 50% below baseline. I don’t think that’s true. biohacking. I think true. biohacking is using strategic use of various compounds and protocols to just facilitate the progression of mankind. 


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, right. Well, and I think strategic is a really important term because it’s not a linear one. One is good, a lot is better. It’s a Goldilocks of not too little, not too much. And understanding all of the physiology and the environment to be able to get the best response from things. So why don’t we like listen to fatigue and exhaustion and brain fog, and not being sharp on the ball and being overstimulated and can’t turn the brain off and waking up in the middle of the night.

So how, let’s get into what word you told me when I was in touch with being interviewed by you, which is like what, what is that? So cosmetic neurology. I think that’s an awesome term. So cosmetic neurology, adrenal fatigue, brain fog. nootropics. Let’s start with however you want to start within that area. Lucas?


Lucas Aoun: Yeah. So cosmetic neurology is a term that looks at how we can manipulate neurotransmitters to suit our means for a particular activity or task or environment. So the way I look at it is the perfect example is like, let’s say somebody is going out, you know, to a party or an event or a dinner or something, and they need to be in a certain state of being where they feel not anxious, they feel disinhibited, they feel free-flowing, and almost like in a joker slash sarcastic. Attitude sort of state of mind. So that there is like, Okay, well, how do we, if somebody wants to feel like that when they go out, and they want to be on point and sharp and funny and witty, and maybe sarcastic?

What can we do with our neurotransmitters to facilitate that outcome, like, what is happening in the brain to, you know, come across like that to other people? So that’s where understanding cosmetic neurology and neurotransmitters come in is that what happens when we increase GABA, we see an anxiety reduction and reduce stress. What happens if we increase dopamine, we increase confidence, we increase motivation, alertness. So sort of like merging all of that, and just really just taking control of our almost like our personality, in a sense.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. And I think it’s really important to say that with the demographic that you work with, you have a tighter control in what you could implement and what kind of response you can get versus, you know, the people that we work with, there’s too many confounding variables where we aren’t controlling for just implement this and see the result because they’re, I mean, everyone has those confounding variables.

But when we’re talking about blood sugar, balance, inflammation, already sympathetic wind-up, microbial overgrowth circadian breakdown, I mean, all of these things have to be taken into consideration with your demographic, too, would that be correct?


Lucas Aoun: Or for sure, and that’s where I say like nootropics can be very, very powerful, and they can be life-changing. But really, they’re just the icing on the cake. It’s like if you’ve already got your foundations, right, like you’re looking after your exercise, and you’re addressing sleep and diet, and avoiding toxins, things like that. You’ve built yourself to a point where your foundation is strong. But now you’re in a different territory, you like you’ve been there for three years, you’ve been yourself to a point. Now you just want to go that extra 10 to 20%. And be just dominating. Almost like yeah, just really just smashing law.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. So let’s get into that. So cosmetic neurology, what give us like, one on one. So how, as a, you know, clinician, or a biohacker, or just supporting one of your clients, how you would go about, you know, implementing your strategies.


Lucas Aoun: So the first thing I would do is get the person to ask, ask themselves, like, what their goal is, like, what are they trying to achieve? Where are they trying to perform, and let’s say, for example, they want to hijack their motivation network? So like, they want to take control of their motivation, drive, alertness, that sort of aspect of cognition, which is a very common one. By the way, a lot of people do struggle with that motivation, alertness, they procrastinate, they just can’t get shit done. And that seems to be a common theme amongst a lot of people.

And so when we look at integrating cosmetic neurology here, we need to first address the primary neurotransmitter that governs those aspects of cognition. We dopamine, noradrenaline, adrenaline, acetylcholine, and histamine. So if we increase the synthesis of these neurotransmitters, there’s a good chance it will help your brain perform that task in the best way possible. So there are a range of novel, dopamine boosting compounds, which I’ll be happy to explore if you want me to dive deeper with some of those novel compounds.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no. I’m, I’m all ears. I like the concept of when I’m working with clients that are exhausted and burnt out. They don’t have motivation. They don’t have the drive, they potentially have ruminating thoughts, they’re waking up like a fire alarm is getting them at, you know, 3 am, and someone’s beating a drum right by their head and they wake up in a stupor and the heart rates elevated.

So yeah, take us through what, beyond the foundational stuff and asking them what their goals are, and then figuring out what the main transmitters are that are responsible for the hijacking. I love your terms. Awesome. So hijacking your motivation system. You know, so what do you go? What do you do about the path that you set once you’ve hijacked the cockpit?


Lucas Aoun: Yep, so once we’ve hijacked the motivation network of the brain. First, we need to understand now what can we implement, that’s going to lead to a sustained increase in that neurotransmitter. In this case, it’s dopamine. Instead of using the precursor compounds, which you know, they do work up until a point like tyrosine, the amino acids, and phenylalanine and B six and B five and Bone. Instead, we can use something known as bro maintained bro. maintained is like one of the world’s first synthetic adaptogens ever developed. And it’s used to treat neurasthenia, which is just like general weakness and fatigue of the body and mind. And Originally, it was sort of deployed for the Russian military and Soviet cosmonauts to combat stress, it was seen as an anti-stress, anti-fatigue agent.

And, of course, when I did my research, I was digging deeper into the clinical studies. And I saw that there was a robust improvement in many aspects of vigor, vitality, and fatigue. And the best part about it was that there were no signs of tolerance, withdrawal, or sensitization. That was the key point. I’m like, Well if we can find a compound, anything like caffeine can do that. But the signs of tolerance, there’s signs of withdrawal, it’s depleting to the, to the adrenals, it’s depleting to dopamine long term, whereas Berman sign hijacks that enzyme tyrosine hydroxylase, the enzyme that converts the tyrosine from our foods into L dopa, and then dopamine it actually, up-regulates that enzyme so that we’re getting and that’s the rate-limiting enzyme that produces dopamine.

So if we’re getting a sustained upregulation in that enzyme, we’re leading to a sustained increase in dopamine. And we see that with you know, I see that with clients I’ve seen that with athletes it’s, unfortunately, it’s now banned by water because it’s so effective. But yeah, bro maintains a novel nootropic that does take a lot of the requirements to improve motivation drive and yeah, General figure


Dr. Joel Rosen: so how do you spell it because that you know Bromo attain, I honestly haven’t heard of it myself. So I always like to do these podcasts because like, yeah, that’s a new one for me. So yeah,


Lucas Aoun: it’s funny because it’s got to my bro maintained the site the actual Russian-like name is Allah Destin, la da sta t n. And it’s been around for I think, 40 years or so. And yeah, as I said, I was just developed to traits, neurasthenia, which, and general weakness of the body and debilitation and recovering from severe sickness. So, it’s not a prescription drug it was at its time, but it’s now available for public use as a supplement. It’s sort of in a gray area with some of these nootropics and supplements. It’s sort of in a gray area. But yeah, I mean by stuff like preliminary studies and how people respond to the compound, it does seem to be a viable, just one of our many tools in our toolkit to improve so One’s quality of life.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. And I think that’s key is a tool in the toolkit, right? Because you’re not going to use the hammer for when you need to do a screwdriver or you’re not going to do a hammer when you need the saw. And I think that’s where we exhaust the utility of nutrients. So what would be your recommendation, okay, someone is lacking motivation, and drive and focus and not getting stuff done. How would you implement the dosing strategy for that?


Lucas Aoun: Sure. So what I found was actually, less is more with this particular nootropic. And that is because not only does it increase dopamine, but it also inhibits GABA transaminase, which is the enzyme that degrades GABA. So most people, they’re silly, they think more is better, you know that I see this all the time with like nootropics. If a little is good, more must be better. That’s not true. And it particularly shines with burn maintenance. So because it inhibits that GABA transaminase enzyme, we’re going to increase GABA tone as well. So we’re going to get like that a zeolitic effect as well. But we don’t want that to be overpowering. Because too much Gabba can be too calming and sedating and relaxing.

So a particular dosage protocol that works well for most people, is about 25 milligrams orally, first thing in the morning because it has a very long half-life. And at its peak serum concentration is like four to six hours after dosing. So it doesn’t quote-unquote, like a kick in, well, you don’t feel the alertness and focus, immediately, it’s more of a delayed effect. And as with all supplements, all nootropics, and all compounds, this is just like every other one, it needs to be cycled. It’s not something you’d want to take daily, every day, you might want to save it for the days that you want to work hard, or you’ve got a lot of public speaking to do. So like five days on two days off would be like a viable strategy. It’s not medical advice, just a heads up.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, whenever that should be a disclaimer anyways, is that we are giving nutritional advice to improve function. And obviously, we’re allowed to do that under the FDA as food to improve function. But this is not medical advice or prescriptions for people to go out and say this is what the doctor said. So as far as So, okay, so, five days on potentially off when you’re wanting to elicit an effect for motivation and getting stuff done. Do you now have seen this with a lot of your clients or a lot of people you work with or are just more research on your own?


Lucas Aoun: Um, I have worked with some, like, executives and like entrepreneurs that need support, personally, but really, it’s all on my blog, the feedback has been mostly through my YouTube videos, I did you know, a comprehensive video breaking down, bro maintained to explain how it works, its pharmacology pharmacokinetics, things like that. And really, the feedback has been across the board. You know, if you go on various forums and things, I would say 80% of people respond quite well to this compound.

There is, you know, it would be irresponsible for me to just explore the benefits and not explore some of the downsides and side effects. I will also present that because that’s important. So, one of the drawbacks that people will discuss and complain about is one particular rat study that says that it may increase amyloid plaque in the brain, but if you look closely, the dosages that they use were ridiculously high, and it’s unlikely to occur in humans.

And even if it does slightly increase amyloid plaque, if you compare like exposure to the toxins in our environment versus this like big going outside and smelling an exhaust fume is more likely to trigger amyloid plaque than a compound that’s designed to be neuroprotective, you know, so, right?


Dr. Joel Rosen:  No, absolutely. So okay, so as far as other cosmetic neurology and novel nootropics what other things you got in your bag of tricks over there? 


Lucas Aoun: Um, so one lit one compound that I liked that’s neuroprotective, but then also relevant to like an adrenal fatigue picture, which I think would be cool to explore is a particular seaweed called Ecklonia Kava it’s a brown algae seaweed that’s got I mean, I think the Japanese spent over $30 million researching this particular seaweed. And it’s so it’s not so fringe and underground, or actually, it is its underwater underground. But, uh, Colonia Kava is, I think, an absolute powerhouse in terms of its antioxidant capacity. It completely obliterates vitamin C, Vitamin E from its antioxidant perspective, and also increases alpha waves in the brain, similar to L theanine, which is found in green tea.

So it gives you that calm, relaxing feeling. It also lowers cortisol, it improves acetylcholine production, so most people noticed much more vivid dreams and better memory performance when they use Ecklonia Cava. And it has a potent anti-anxiety action as well. And it does this yet again, in a very sustainable way. It increases the ability of GABA to bind to its receptor. So to gather positive allosteric modulators. So opens up the gab receptor makes it more receptive to your body’s own GABA, which is great.

Like, we want something that’s going to work with the body and not rob the body. So the qualia cover shines as you’ve seen. I haven’t done a video on it yet. I haven’t done I haven’t spoken about a much just on a few podcasts, because it’s um, I will be soon. But it’s I think it’s a really powerful tool yet again, that we can utilize.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I see a lot of clients that have had major challenges with the benzodiazepines and the Kilonzo pans and stuff like that, where they were on it for so long, Lucas. And now it’s created a lot of plasticity and just feedback issues and major anxiety concerns. So I don’t know, have you seen any research on that for helping people through withdrawals or just kind of re-modulating? Because that would be helpful for some of the people I’m working with?


Lucas Aoun: For sure. So that’s something I do cover in the nootropics course is one element of that, which is like, how do we upregulate the GABA receptors that have been so heavily downregulated from benzos and Valium and compounds, which is again, millions of people struggling with this problem. And so they’re either in withdrawal, they need volume, benzos to sleep, and all without it, they’re a mess like they’re anxious and life is extremely difficult. So there is another compound, the Konya carb can help with that GABA tone. Another one that works quite well to upregulate GABA receptors is one called homo taurine.

So pretty, pretty wild, wacky name. It’s not. It’s got nothing to do with sexuality at all, but they named it homo taurine. And basically, this. This is found in a different type of seaweed. And it’s used to. So basically it’s a GABA B antagonist. So it blocks the GABA receptor. So literally, when you take the compound, it will put you almost put you into a state of benzo withdrawal. So it’s literally like you’re taking something to feel worse.

But then it has a rebound effect the next day where you get that sustained upregulation. So it’s almost like, and this is a quote I haven’t used on any podcast. Yeah, but anti endocrinology, it’s like anti, it’s anti endocrinology, you’re doing the opposite of what you want first, to then read down and come back up to get that response that you’re looking for.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I think some medications work that way too, though. No, I mean, in terms of Adderall and stimulants, where if someone’s already producing too much of that they give more to inhibit the production. Is it along the same lines?


Lucas Aoun: Yes, sort of. I think that there. Yeah, that’s like it’s almost like a double-double, a double-double, a double positive to make a negative, or a double negative to make a positive. Yeah, yeah, you’re right. Definitely.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. Well, so it’s happened adaptogenic at the end of the day, right? I mean, if you’re resetting the receptors, and you’re kind of like doing the fuse breaker, right, like you’re, you know, when you’re your trip a fuse, and you need to reset it and turn it on and turn off and I think that the way my mind works, Lucas in terms of, that’s probably the best I’d be concerned.

With some of the clients that I’ve seen, unfortunately for 10 years or longer, when it shows that that shouldn’t be used more than so many days, I mean, I don’t know what happens there, but I’d be concerned about having them go through more withdrawal because they’re already going through withdrawal. But if you know, what do you what’s your thought on that?


Lucas Aoun: In that scenario, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t veer towards something as intense as Homer taurine, but instead, I’d use something like BPC 157. We’ve seen some good I’m sure you’ve heard about VPC 157. That there I mean that there has this countless reports online of people recovering from benzo withdrawal using BPC seems to have a very stabilizing and rebalancing effect on the brain. It does have some degree of affinity towards the GABA network.

But the thing is we just don’t know how BPC 157 works. But it just seems to help to recalibrate the brain and usually with my endeavors if I’ve because I like to experiment and a lot of the time, if I’ve accidentally set myself down the wrong path as in like, I’m too anxious and I’m feel bad myself. Oftentimes, I’ll resort to BBC just to correct things. And then I’m back to back to good again like I’m just back online.

But yeah, be between BBC 157. There’s another, I think taurine by itself can do quite a good job. And again, it’s sustainable. It’s non-toxic, you know, within, even at higher doses. It has other pleiotropic effects beyond just the brain. And it does just do a pretty good job at reducing anxiety for a lot of people as well.


Dr. Joel Rosen: You know, it’s interesting, as you say that because I study a lot of functional genomics. And I think about that whole transsulfuration pathway, where we’re looking at ultimately taking home another homo named cysteine. And I guess it’s just one taurine molecule or one cysteine molecule, and they call it home, homocysteine or whatever. But anyway, what they do is there’s a lot of Plinko chips that can go down the wrong pathway, depending on if there’s inflammation if there are enzymes that are inhibited because of heavy metals, and so forth, but you see sulfites and sulfates and gluten ion and taurine.

They all go down those pathways and my hunches, maybe you can confirm this or not, that when you do have those inflammatory mediators signaling things down the wrong pathway, perhaps BBC gets that more modulated. But not only that, but when it does go down the wrong pathways, it ends up robbing Peter to pay Paul and in this case, we see a lot of people that are heavily dosed with sulfites. So they have sulfite intolerances, their hormones fall, they’re not making taurine brain function go down. And then also they’re not making gluten ion. So they’re not reducing the inflammation and reducing stress and signaling their detox pathways. Have you as does that make sense to you at all? or? 


Lucas Aoun: Yeah, it made sense to me. I just love how you broke that down. You’re bridging every single gap there and stating how it’s having a ripple effect all downstream. I was just, I was just picturing it in my head. I’m young, like going down all the different pathways, which is great. I think BBC. Yeah, I mean, it’s probably affecting somewhere down the line. is it helping with liver function because we know that BBC 157 has also been used to reverse pan ibuprofen or Tylenol toxicity? It’s been shown to repair the damage to the liver. So perhaps it’s having some degree of detoxification property. But really like yeah, these compounds like BPC one by seven.

There are so many I mean, I could, I could just explore so many like from the GABA network. There’s another one from traditional Chinese medicine, which I love to explore a lot of Chinese medicinal herbs as well. In my spare time, I go down to this place called China books and I read them the Chinese, their traditional Chinese medicinal textbooks and I just love how they view the body from like, you know, ci and energy and stuff.

But there’s a cool compound from Chinese medicine from the herb, gastro dia. It’s called gastrin. Day one there has been shown that’s being used in like autism, and it’s And Asperger’s to help with tics and things like that. Guest gastrin I think life extension they used to stop it, they don’t anymore. that there has been shown to upregulate GABA production by like 20 to 30%. So that’s a versatile he had yet again, another strategy to utilize.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s always interesting to talk to. And I say this with pure love, like your fellow geek and talk to them about like science and you know, mixing your chocolate with my peanut butter and coming with you know, these different things. And you know, when I think about this, I think about like one of the major inhibitors to all gene snips is inflammation is oxidative stress. hydroxyl radicals are just superoxides, all of these byproducts of the environment, causing your smoke to come out of your chimney if you will.

And ultimately, that will make something like BPC that much better, but it would also make something like the nootropic less in, in helpful because you haven’t necessarily dialed down the basics and the fundamentals in way of inflammation. After all, you’re expecting that nootropic to be a magic wand, right? So does that happen a lot in that world? I am ignorant in that world. Does that happen a lot where maybe some of these biohackers have put the cart before the horse, and they haven’t realized that they need to get healthy before these can have the nootropic benefit that does that happen a lot?


Lucas Aoun: Oh, for sure. And it’s funny, you mentioned that because my next video is talking about modafinil. The drawbacks, it’s a very commonly abused anti narcolepsy drug so it increases wakefulness and alertness. But that’s a perfect example, though use modafinil in place of high-quality sleep, then three weeks down the line, when there’s run out of modafinil, or they take a break, they are going to feel horrendous, they’re going to feel extremely depleted, exhausted and burnt out. And that’s a common mistake. You know, there’s a lot of people that fall into that trap when they enter into the nootropic space.

And, you know, when I started about seven years ago, like exploring this, uh, you know, I ran into that mistake myself. So really, the best way to infuse these compounds in nootropics is to work with your already healthy baseline lifestyle. And, like, we could talk for hours about the benefits of sleep. And I know you’ve spoken about it quite a lot across your channels. But I think yeah, I think the future lies in, how can we get the deepest and restful sleep possible, using not only our blue blockers and temperature and environment and foods, but also which nootropics can facilitate improvements in REM sleep, which nootropics can facilitate improvements in deep sleep and produce wakening awakenings and things like that. I think that’s a really exciting area.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. And I almost think about it as you can put it into a quadrant or just threes, where I would say, quadrant where you have the very, very unhealthy. And then you have the on the far end, the very, very healthy. And then in the middle, you have the not so unhealthy, and the not so healthy, if we can divide it into four quadrants. And then each one of those quadrants would a have different out. Go outputs or results that you’d be looking for that would differ, right, and then at the same time, all of them would have a certain Goldilocks zone of not too little, not too much.

And I think that’s I don’t, that would be a really good idea for understanding like because I know with someone with the challenges that I have, I would love to give them a magic wand and give them this amazing product and have that undo years of stress and buildup of toxins and chemicals. But it’s not. And ultimately I say okay, well we could layer that in, we want to re-modulate your brain, we want to kind of get you to be less inflamed and ruminating. But we’re not talking about the guy over here that’s super healthy and is going to get the most designer cosmetic effect out of it. Can you want to speak a little bit about that?


Lucas Aoun: Yeah. Well, I think Yeah, what you’re touching on there is paramount. So it’s almost like you got to earn the right to use it. It’s like, you got to do the work. You got to do the work with the foundations first. And then you’ve earned the right the privilege. It’s almost Like something to look forward to. It’s like, if you’ve done the grunt work, the groundwork and you’ve honed in, you nailed your diet and like you’re on point with things like that, then perhaps your incentive and motivation will be, Oh, I know that I’m gonna get to 80% here, just with all of these things alone, and then the icing on the cake will be something like, you know, bromance pain or other things like that, that can help just improve what you’ve already built upon it.

And the thing is, a lot of these nootropics require you to have zero nutrient deficiencies. They require, you know, healthy digestion, they require healthy detoxification, they require sufficient hydration exercise to work properly. So really, they’re going to be losing money by purchasing a nootropic at the wrong point in that phase, because if they’re going to deploy it at the wrong time, they’re not going to get the most bang for the buck. So I think yeah, definitely a good point. 


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. And you know, taking that one step further, as well, we do this, sometimes patients will ask, Well, how do I know if I’m getting better? And I can say objectively, like, you’d look at test one, and it shows you have X amount and text to shows you, more or less which direction you want. That’s one way. Another way would be you tell me, Mrs. Jones, like you remember, like, you weren’t sleeping before? Now you are and some people get amnesia about that, right?

They forget, like, Oh, my gosh, all right, I remember when it was so bad. So you kind of have to remember that. But what I was gonna say sometimes Lucas is with the application of what you just mentioned, some supplements, I love the idea, you have to earn the right for it to be effective for you. Some people I’ll put on supplements and like, oh, I’ve done that before. And it didn’t work. And I’ll say, Well, did you do it with this, this, this, this and this? And that? Like, no, I’m like, well, then you haven’t done it before. And actually, this is what I want to show you is, is that let’s not do it, let’s do this, this, this and this, but we were going to do with it, we’ll implement that.

And then one of our benchmarks for improvement will be when you bring that back supplement back in, it’s not going to be it didn’t work for me or it made me worse, it’s going to be oh my gosh, I felt like it made me better, or I noticed the improvement. And that’s what I tell people is that’s it not only a great sign of you improving, but it’s also a fact that the reality is is that you weren’t ready for it before. And you don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and cross it off. You’re never gonna do that again, list because you just weren’t ready for it. I think that’s a huge deep rabbit hole, we went down to a to the What do you think about that?


Lucas Aoun: Oh. Like I was just thinking now like, how many times I’ve said to myself, I’m going to revisit this in six months, I’m going to come back to this in six months. Because again, like, and even the way that you describe that where it’s almost like we are molding the body, we’re the body is malleable like we can fixate and change it in a way to then receive the input, sorry, the external compound in different ways. So it’s like, yeah, I think, um, and even the point they’re on, you may or may not have been ready at the time. But I’ll add one to that is that even the actual quality of the product, or perhaps the brand, or the way that the Herbes extracted, can have completely different effects, for example, with a classic adaptogen Rhodiola, which, you know, spent years researching and diving into what it does in the brain and things like that. When we look at Rhodiola, it’s broken down into various constituents, the ones salidroside are one of them.

And Rosamond is another one that people will talk about. Now. What’s key to understand is that this Rhodiola that was manufactured by this company will have completely different effects from this Rhodiola manufactured by this other company. And that may be due to how they did the extraction, you know, was alcohol-based ethanol, ethanol, water, joule, whatever, that there is going to have a significant effect on how that person responds. And I’ve tried this with I went through various shoots is another herb that I love. And I went through like six different types. And only one of them had a profound increasing effect on energy and things like that.

So I think one point to stress is that not only does our biochemistry matter, but the individual makeup of the herb matters that the herb itself has energy. And so how has the energy customized or put together in a way that suits your body like, is it? Because, you know, you might hear jack from down the road, say I tried Rhodiola it didn’t work. Or it made me too stimulated. Whereas john said that Rhodiola was calming, what are you talking about? Like, it was relaxing? You know, that’s where it comes down to that intricacy and, you know, extraction quality and things like that.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, that’s where you have to be the astute clinician to know like, okay, like, Was it bad? Or was it bad? Or did we just, we didn’t do enough of a microdose, because I find that’s the other thing too, is, is that all of a lot of very sensitive people, we look at them as their mast cell activated in the least little bit of fairy dust, we’ll put them you know, like, over the top. And so they’ll tell me like a lot of the times like, it was good the first time, but then after that, it wasn’t it was like, Well, what why did you take the second time? You were feeling good, right?

Like, well, I was told I need to do it every day? Well, no, like, you want to think of it as riding a wave. Did you catch a wave? Why are you coming off of the wave that you’re already on? You don’t need to get greedy, you’re on a wave right now you feel better than you did. That’s one strategy. But the other strategy is, you took too much, and you need to microdose that doesn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater in that regard, especially if we’ve done a good workup. We’ve looked at the research, we know what’s going on specifically with your body. And this has indicated that makes sense?


Lucas Aoun: Oh, for sure. Yeah, that’s it’s a brilliant concept. And we could, it would be fun too, it’d be fun to just generally like sit down with a range of practitioners to see how they go about handling that or like what they do in that situation. And something there that you mentioned, like with the micro-dosing aspects, in terms of like, I was having a look at different dosing protocols, not just for nootropics, but just in general for supplements. And I’m thinking, alright, so we can do every day, we can do every second day, we can do like twice a week, we can do pulse Otile dosing, it does depend on and I’ve even got supplements that I’ll use once a month, I’ve got things that I’ll use once every two weeks, as like a reset or like this so many different ways you can go about dosage protocols like I’ve got really strict criteria, personally, just myself, for when I’ll use Metformin, not that I need Metformin.

But if I want to binge and have, you know, go out and have some sweeten, or if I have a super late night, and I’m up till 2:30 am, which I know I wasn’t supposed to do, and I know it’s going to hurt my biology. Well, that’s maybe when I do bring in something heavy hitting like Metformin to offset the deleterious effects of the way I live, you know, so, time and place.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no. I mean, that’s part two, because you read my mind because I was gonna ask you about the biohacking with NPK, and Metformin, and, you know, getting into a toffee G and getting into mtorr. Because I’m going down that pathway right now, just for your interest is I like the concept of mtorr, which is growth and building and regenerating and building. And then nerf to with antioxidants coming in and modulating that and kind of like, almost like, you know what it is, it’s like, in our backyard, we have automatic sprinklers. And it wakes me up in the morning. But I know like once it’s past the zone in the backyard, it’s going to the zone in the front and then it’s going to the zone in the side.

And I think we have to think about carrying on from what we just talked about is the Zen in the art of supplementation, right because we are so paradigm to the three squares three times a day, you know, like however, we do it till the cows come home like hey Lucas, this is a forever like ground in a granite-like death sentence for the rest of your life to take this supplement. When in fact, you said it succinctly earlier on like, my strategy is okay, understanding what the goal is, right, what the goal is, but also knowing like what are your stressors daily?

What’s your physiology, and how can we modulate the knowledge that you need to harness that and use it when you need to and not use it when you don’t? So that analogy of when the sprinkler system goes on. You have distinct mtorr days where you’re thinking about protein methylation, all the carbohydrates, just growing strength training, then you go into nerf two and what modulates the balance between the two and you start doing more sulforaphane stuff and glycine and things that sort of support that transsulfuration pathway. And then you go into a toffee G and stimulate NPK Have you looked into that at all as well yourself?


Lucas Aoun: Oh, for sure. I was just literally I have a joke with one of my, one of my naturopathic buddies. We, like, we just know, because we’re on the same wavelength we just joke about, like, hey, Dawn today, man, and he’s like, yeah, just having one of those abs case or today’s you know,


Dr. Joel Rosen: like, right. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what the thing is, is like, I think bodybuilders because I come from that background to some extent in terms of, they were some of the not the original biohackers, but like, say the 1980 biohackers, right, where they understood about just cyclic training.


Lucas Aoun: I think body Yeah, I’ve got a lot of like nerdy bodybuilder friends that are like, really, really well versed in terms of like, understanding hormones, and understanding pharmacology as well, because they’re using such powerful performance-enhancing drugs, they need to be very switched on with how to use them. And so in doing so they have to learn biology first to then use them. Yeah, I think you can take a lot from them. And unfortunately, they get like a really bad rap. Like a lot. A lot of them in general, like, although I must say, majority of them do have that very abusive mindset, which does turn me off.

And not. It’s just I think it’s really, I think it’s frowned upon. And I think it should be because they, a lot of them can be very abusive, and more is more like, they just want more and more and more. So I think that and you’re never happy if I’m making some bold statements, but as bodybuilders will never be happy because they’re always seeking, you know, progression and the look in the mirror and there was wanting more and more and more. So that mentality is just depleting them over time.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, it’s the same thing that happens at the cellular level, you need to have a Cinderella a Goldilocks zone, where you’re not doing too much, you’re not doing too little, the same thing happens at the 30,000 views, foot level like you just can’t get greedy with things. I look at that in terms of sort of the same concept when you are exercising, and you are needing to balance your rest days.

And you got to remember, I mean, at the end of the day, this is to make your life better, I got trapped in that in terms it’s no longer the means it becomes the ends. And that’s not a fun life to live if you’re doing something for the ends of it and not the means for it to get you somewhere. That’s where you’ve lost sight of why does that makes sense?


Lucas Aoun: Oh, for sure. Yeah.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so Well listen, I mean, I want to save a part two because I want to get into the hole and PK and what that means in terms of helping your body recycle its cells and go into fasting sort of amendment King things. I’d be interested to know your take on that and blood sugar, but that’s a whole other podcast. So as far as I always like to ask and respectful for your time.

We went through some holes we weren’t expecting at the very beginning. But what would you tell other people who maybe are what would you tell maybe the younger Lucas now that you know what you know, in terms of nootropics and cosmetic neurology and balance in life and you know, the tools of the trade that you know, now that that bright-eyed and bushy-tailed Lucas didn’t know about?


Lucas Aoun: Well, actually, one thing would be something that I’ve probably discovered at the start of lockdown and that is just how much of an impact being around your friends and being around a social circle can have on my quality of life just because at the start I undervalued that and I thought that we can hijack it again, this is just me thinking that I could hijack my well being with cosmetic neurology and outperform the environment just myself.

But now I’m understanding like, what I felt my happy my happiest and most content and just generally alive when I’m with people that I’m I feel connected to and are on the same wavelength. Not the same 5g wavelength with the same wavelength. Yeah, just looking back. If I were to tell myself just don’t underestimate the power of your social environment. That’s probably the biggest one for me. 


Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, that’s where the term buzzkill comes into play right number one and number two is I think from the Beatles quoted it the best is they get high with little help with their friends, right? I mean, if you have the wrong set of friends You can have a bad no tropic trip. And that goes into also what you said earlier in terms of, it’s just not how the impact it’s going to have on you. But it’s also how it’s processed and it’s utilized. But it’s also what’s your mindset going into it?

And what’s your you know, what’s your, your circumstances? And what kind of stressors are you trying to get away from and how inflamed and yada yada, yada? So, anyways, listen, I enjoyed you being here today. Learn certainly a lot. I’d love to have you back for part two if that’s possible. And but how do our listeners find out more about you, Lucas, and find out where you are online and what you do, and the courses you offer?


Lucas Aoun: Yeah, awesome. I’d be more than happy to come back on for part two. A lot of topics we, you know, could talk for hours about, but for those listening in, they can find me on YouTube, if they search, boost your biology on YouTube. And also Instagram, can search by brand, ergogenic, underscore health got some amazing free content there.

And then I’ve also got my website ergogenic dot health, got some cool products and got some courses as well. I’ve got a very comprehensive cosmetic neurology course on nootropics. Course. So guys, if you like that whole concept and you want to learn more, there’s a whole course their people can dive into.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. All right, well, good. What’s and then what’s next for you? What’s the lesson? I didn’t tell the readers because I thought this was mighty Lee impressive as well as you’re doing all of this when you’re not even just graduated yet. Is that correct?


Lucas Aoun: Yeah. This Thursday is my final clinic session. So I’ll be graduating in like three weeks. So congratulations.


Dr. Joel Rosen: But I think that’s a testament to you to say, Hey, I already know what I want. And I’m just learning and doing at the same time, which is awesome, which is great. Yeah, so awesome. Okay, well, listen, I appreciate your time. And I wish you future success. And I will be calling on you again, Lucas to do part two, and nothing but success for you in the future.


Lucas Aoun: Awesome. Thanks for having me, Joe.


Dr. Joel Rosen: Thanks. Thanks, buddy.


To check out Lucas and his education material, click here

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